VGCollect Forum
General and Gaming => General => Topic started by: bikingjahuty on May 25, 2019, 12:52:02 pm
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Of course I'm referring to sites like Limited Run Games, Special Reserve Games, Super Rare Games, and their ilk of distributors/retailers that get very limited quantities of games printed and sell them as small, exclusive batches.
I didn't realize until recently how divided people are on them. I assumed that most people liked them because they supplied games that otherwise might have never got a physical release and made them available to collectors. However, there are a lot of people that seem to hate them since they see their business model as a blatant cash grab that in the end benefits scalpers more than actual collectors. I certainly see both sides of the argument, but I was wondering how others felt about them.
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I don't see their business patterns fit or vary logical, I am sure they have their reasons why they don't produce in big bunches.
The way I see it if they want to make any money, why make such a small amount? and if people bought those limited quantities why don't they make more of them? I am still a little annoyed over Nintendo making the NES classic in limited supply.
Did they already abandon the NES classic or do they still sell it? I never looked into it because I only have a CRT I don't have a television with HDMI ports in which is why I didn't buy one :-\
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I've purchased a handful of Limited Run games in the past. Their customer service is fairly good and the staff actively take measures against scalpers by only letting people buy a maximum of 1 or 2 copies of a game. Then, after the game sells out they go through and cancel all the botted orders and allow real people to sign up for a waitlist to get their hands on the cancelled orders. I'm not sure how great of a job they do for that though because it's not public knowledge how many bot orders get cancelled AFAIK.
I don't like that they ship games in crappy bubble mailers by default. You have to explicitly order a shipping box for a few extra dollars if you want your product undamaged. My Jak II copy came in the mail damaged (it looked like something was dropped on the case and there was a tear in the artwork), but customer service was kind about it and they mailed me a free replacement box. Nothing else though, only the box and the artwork, so if you wanted your game sealed then it might have been an issue when you had to open up the game and put your manual and disc in the new box. They made me take pictures of the damage first, and then after it was approved they had me take pictures again to make sure they sent out the correct cover variant (good). Fortunately I didn't have to request a shipping box for the replacement copy and they sent one on their own.
I've personally never had a problem with scalpers. They tend to only go for the supreme expensive collector's editions of games instead of the standard copies (obviously). Recently I've heard it's been getting out of hand with the Jak and Daxter collector's editions. I only wanted the regular copies and when Jak 3 went on sale, the standard PS4 copy remained in stock for almost 20 minutes after release, MUCH longer than the Jak and Daxter and Jak II batches. Edit: I just went back and checked, Jak and Daxter started at 5,000 copies of the standard edition, then Jak II and Jak 3 were upped to 7,500 copies for their releases, looks like they were trying to account for the demand.
The shipment times are usually very slow. For example I ordered Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath for PS3 (their first PS3 title) months ago, think February. Still to this day I've not gotten a shipment notice or any word about the game. They did this for Oddworld: Munch's Oddysee on Vita last year too, it was very slow. However it did eventually arrive and I'm happy with the product.
Same goes for all the other products. There's a lot of love put into the games and artwork and they don't seem overwhelmingly cash-grab to me.
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to be fair if the demand is there they will give a reprint or supply the games to greater retailers in alternate packaging.
so I can see why they would go for low supply so that all copies will be sold to prevent any financial losses. People forget that this market ain't super big. if you produce to many copies your profits will be gone you have to hit a certain sweet spot I'd imagine.
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I used to be all-in on the fad and I've never once paid a scalper for one of these games, but lately I find the whole limited copies of [mostly] mediocre games for 30 to 40 bucks to be a rather odd practice. A couple of years ago I was buying LRG games just because they were LRG games, not because the games were necessarily good or even something I wanted to play. That's how I ended up with games like Thomas Was Alone or Breach and Clear: Deadline. Now I only buy the game I know I want to play like Snake Pass, ToeJam & Earl: Back in the Groove or Golf Story. I bought Axiom Verge for Wii U simply because I'm a Wii U collector but I doubt I'll ever open the shrink wrap. At first I thought the practice was cool; I got Retro City Rampage from V Blank and it was crazy rare but nowadays you look at eBay and you can still get a lot of these limited release games for like 50 bucks or so. Most people who buy these games never even open them so what's the point? Sometimes they release something cool, but I have staved off of these limited release games and have been no worse for the wear lately.
Getting to the scalper point: Shit, I've started to sell games lately on eBay and I'm extremely entertained by the prices I get for what I'm selling. Sometimes it's well over what I spent, sometimes it's under what I spent. I bought two Wii U Axiom Verge's just so I could scalp the other one and I did! (That's my first EVER scalp) and it was neat to pretty much get a game for free. Game collector's hate it, (I still kinda do) but I understand the practice. Most of the times these companies don't limit the number of copies either so they're just begging for scalping to occur.
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I've never purchased games from Strictly Limited or Super Rare Games, but I've posted a lot about LRG in the past on this forum. I do buy games from them occasionally, but only games that I want to play (I have Shantae: Risky's Revenge, Bastion, Broken Age, Cosmic Star Heroine, Spelunky, and Salt and Sanctuary).
My problem with LRG has always been their two handed business philosophy. I find it baffling that they can be about the "preservation of physical games" when they print less than 6,000 copies a pop! How the hell is that preservation? The game might as well have never come out physical at all if you ask me. It's such a farce. The company has been far more focused on the "limited" editions to sucker people in to buying product that they'll never actually use. The putting out of games on the Switch after it's been out on PS4, and the selling of games ALREADY available in physical form really speaks to that. That's just not the way I roll when it comes to gaming.
And doing sales this way brings out all the issues with physical media, like scalpers and getting crowded out of purchase lines for popular items. And it seems like every item for sale on ebay is way more expensive because it's usually sealed. I ultimately wish that every item they release was for preorder, I think it would still keep items limited but at least everyone would get an opportunity to purchase it with absolutely no worry of missing out. At least they're doing that with the heavy hitters nowadays.
At the end of the day LRG benefits collectors and scalpers FAR more than gamers who just want to play the game physically.
EDIT: empovyle also brought up how they ship their games in these crappy bubble mailers which I've also had problems with. My copy of S&S and Broken Age both had massive cracks in the case, and 90% of the time I open up the game with the disc loose in the case. Doesn't bother me that much since I can just replace the case, but I am worried that a game will become seriously damaged one of these days.
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I like their costumer support, price and the quality of their releases (so far, I've only bought from Limited Run and Strictly Limited though), but I hate their business model.
It seems to me that having a decided amount of copies of a determinated game may actually act as an incentive to scalpers.
When I buy a game, I don't care if only other 2,499 people also have a copy of it or not, I only care if I do! So, in my opinion, I'd prefer if they opened a product for sale for, let's say, one or two weeks and then print as many copies as necessary in accordance to the demand.
I don't know what are their contracts with Sony, Nintendo and the publishers though...
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I remember when Limited Run was first starting I believe they were posting on this forum.
I like the idea that there are more physical games but I don't like how they are numbered to make it seem like you need them all. I have bought zero so far mostly because the games I am interested in I already have through like PS Plus or I bought them digitally for much cheaper.
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I like how they try really hard to get important patches and DLC on the disc before it ships out, even though that sometimes causes legendary delays like with Pixel Junk Monsters 2 :o
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I'm perfectly fine with the limited publishers. I find most of the complaints about them can be boiled to down to people with this mindset: "I want to be able to buy a game when it's convenient for me, so it can't sell out first!"
On print runs: they actually did a couple experimental runs early on where they did an open preorder system, to see if it would be beneficial. End result? It sold about the same as a standard run would have, and the amount of manpower they had to put into dealing with order cancellations ballooned. Basically, the handful of extra orders was cancelled out by the extra work. And no, this wasn't on an obscure release- I think it was Wonder Boy, so you can't say it wasn't a popular title. Later on, when they introduced Switch games, they did the experiment AGAIN to check that demand- and apparently it's a lot higher, becuase all Switch standard releases have a 2-week preorder window.
I've never had trouble buying a game I wanted from LRG- get online about 5 minutes early, log in to your account so your checkout info's ready. Simple. I do get people being pissed at the cart system- knowing your item aren't yours until you pay is a pain, especially on multi-release days. It seems to work just fine as long as you're a lil' proactive though- moseying in 5 minutes late is a bad idea.
At the end of the day LRG benefits collectors and scalpers FAR more than gamers who just want to play the game physically.
Any limited release from anywhere benefits scalpers- there's always someone with nothing better to do than wait & buy it, and someone else with so much better to do they'll pay a premium to not have to wait & buy it. LRG at least has item limits, making it difficult to be a career scalper with their product, or worse- forcing you to choose between a copy for yourself & a copy to flip. Also, if you're a gamer who wants to play the physical game, you ARE a collector- otherwise you'd save your money by buying a download.
You're not wrong though- regardless of what they say, LRG caters very much to the collector demographic, not the player.
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It's gonna be a sad time for people in 10-20 years who want a complete PS4 set.
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It's gonna be a sad time for people in 10-20 years who want a complete PS4 set.
yup pretty much all lrg releases are more rare than the majority of the rarest retro games. Quantities are multiple times less than wester releases of panzer dragoon saga wich was around 10K in the US only.
If we keep that in mind horrific times await for them fools who attempt this. considering that many releases are between 1 and 5K only
On the other hand if the demand goes down and people can't get rid of it it can't be to hard to aquire them games. kinda hard to predict really. quantity and mediocre quality for allot of them releases might put people off to go on collecting for LRG types of releases.
Demand and hype are first priority in terms of collectibles. rarity comes 2nd as an important part for stuff to become valuable
Far to many examples in other collectible markets such as comics etc in wich case way more rare comics are less worth since the hype and or history of the item isn't as iconic as a far less rare examples wich are sought after even on the high end scale in the 10K's + $ range
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It's gonna be a sad time for people in 10-20 years who want a complete PS4 set.
I believe it will be virtually impossible for someone to own a complete set of PS4 or Switch games in the future. For example, in theory, Strictly Limited Games should be considered as part of the European set, am I right?
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It's gonna be a sad time for people in 10-20 years who want a complete PS4 set.
I believe it will be virtually impossible for someone to own a complete set of PS4 or Switch games in the future. For example, in theory, Strictly Limited Games should be considered as part of the European set, am I right?
how is it impossible? 1000 2000 copies around people hoarding them factory sealed mostly for reselling in the future. It's save few people want to keep those mostly for reselling
I mean if your wallet is ready It's possible. It's not like atari in wich only 5 or less copies exist for some games. unless this market crashes since to many items come out. Look at baseball cards etc to many collector versions could crash the market people lose interest. not to mention all games usually released on multi platforms wich makes the games as a whole less desirable to collect since you can choose between systems.
was only ps4 in the past, than ps vita as a 2nd and nowadays switch pretty much all the time aswell 3 consoles. keep in mind that multi platform releases include a seperate replica of the collectors edition for each of these 3 consoles.
takes this example
Do people really want to get the ps vita, ps4 and switch collectors edition of bloodstained curse of the moon the collectors edition for each consoles.? 1 of the 3 sure but all 3 that seems a bit much.
https://limitedrungames.com/search?type=product,article,page&q=curse%20of%20the%20moon*
I highly doubt it now take a mediocre game and ask this question again
I do know that there are collectors out there that want all 3 but what's the point. collectors editions are so common these days It's not special anymore let alone exact same replica's of said collectors editions of 1 game for 3 systems
Xbox one is the only console that seems to be shafted.
ps2,wii, ds and arguable psp era where the last generations in wich special editions where actually special and where normal releases where the majority.
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Utterly Detest Them!!!
It's quite simply as to why really, I find their business model to be flawed. They set a certain date and time on the Online Store for the consumer to buy their game, but the reality is that the item is usually gone witin the hour and then the people who really want the game are at the unrelenting scheming of scalpers on Ebay.
Quick Fix - Why not set a date and let all the people who want to buy the product do so with a Pre-order before the deadline. That way the consumer has a fair chance to get their order in and get the game and the company can a reading on how much stock they need and ship within the month... It just seems so simple, yet with their current bussiness model I jsut have to pray they don't get their hands on properties I actually want.
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Utterly Detest Them!!!
It's quite simply as to why really, I find their business model to be flawed. They set a certain date and time on the Online Store for the consumer to buy their game, but the reality is that the item is usually gone witin the hour and then the people who really want the game are at the unrelenting scheming of scalpers on Ebay.
Quick Fix - Why not set a date and let all the people who want to buy the product do so with a Pre-order before the deadline. That way the consumer has a fair chance to get their order in and get the game and the company can a reading on how much stock they need and ship within the month... It just seems so simple, yet with their current bussiness model I jsut have to pray they don't get their hands on properties I actually want.
to be fair if the demand is really there and people complain enough they usually sell another batch. But I do agree if not enough people complain your screwed. but even in the good scenario you'll have to wait for a while.
your method seems like a logical one, produce copies and afterwards produce the copies to fulfill them pre orders. no leftovers for potential losses. however financially speaking when doing so, maybe they'll lose allot of customers by doing so, lesser sales. Kinda hard to estimate what sort of influence it would have.
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That's not a flawed model for them, because it is exactly their plan. By producing a limited number of games that are only available at a certain time they are creating a market and demand. If they produced too many people wouldn't want them.
There would be no difference if they did it as pre-orders, because that is basically what they are doing now. If they do not set a specific amount of unit to be created they could find themselves in a situation where it actually costs more to produce the units that they bring in - this is because the manufacturing is done in bulk. They have to purchase a specific amount of units from the factory - and this is very likely linked to the 6,000 or so units that they usually produce. A number that I'm sure has been arrived at by crunching the numbers by determining how many can they make, while meeting the factory quotas and not sitting on too many unsold units for too long.
So, if they were to open pre-orders, per your suggestion, and they receive 6,973 orders. They can't just produce that number. They likely have to buy them in specific multiples - whether it's 6,000, 8,000, 10,000, etc.. Even if it was 7,000 that's still 27 unsold units. Why do that when they could ensure that they sell all of them by capping the number at 6,000?
Like sworddude said, if the demand is there, they will make more. If they aren't making more it just means that there isn't enough interest for them to justify making another 6,000 units.
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If consumers get (understandably) frustrated when Nintendo doesn't make enough stock of the Switch or Amiibos or the NES classic or whatever, I don't see how a company that purposefully holds production back should be viewed any differently.
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If consumers get (understandably) frustrated when Nintendo doesn't make enough stock of the Switch or Amiibos or the NES classic or whatever, I don't see how a company that purposefully holds production back should be viewed any differently.
those are unfair examples
during the wii u era nintendo had done horrible in console sales almost gone broke, their reserves where pretty much empty during the wii u era. There production quantities where by far not what they where used to be nor did they expect the demand for the switch if where looking at the wii u totally understandable. Main mistake being that people thought the wii u was just a wii not a new console. There casual audience was gone while with the switch they advertised it pretty nicely and the casual audience know of it's existence that it's a new gen nintendo console.
The wii u is a great example of how big the gamer audience is. the causal audience, and a console for kids are by far the larger part of a consoles income. Just imagine how abysmal the sales would have been for the ps4 or xbox one if people thought those consoles where just the same as their last gen counter parts in other words no need for a new console.
Same thing goes for the nes classic and amiibo who would have expected so many people to be all over them, with the snes mini and later amiibo runs they altered production quantities and fixed it pretty much.
As far as rare amiibo's go from recent years, The demand is not there anymore way less people that collect amiibo, the amiibo hype has slowed down dropped dead, no comparison to them earlier years. no justification to produce those newer amiibo's a hell lot more because the demand is just to little.
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At the end of the day both scenarios are about frustration from consumers over a lack of inventory. The reason why only paints LRG in a worse light IMO.
And we all know that Nintendo at least restocked their products later on. LRG will not do that because again, it's about keeping stock low to artificially drive up demand.
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At the end of the day both scenarios are about frustration from consumers over a lack of inventory. The reason why only paints LRG in a worse light IMO.
And we all know that Nintendo at least restocked their products later on. LRG will not do that because again, it's about keeping stock low to artificially drive up demand.
Never once was I not able to get a Limited Run Games release if I wanted it. Not once have I had to scalp one of these limited games, if I wanted it I got it; as long as I was online within a few minutes of it going on sale I was able to get it. I don't see how they are "artificially driving up demand" if they aren't holding any product back; it's expensive to produce those games, what they make is what they make. It's not like they have a stockpile of limited games in a warehouse, or even the means to produce more of them. From what I understand it's up to the developer of the game to pay for the number of copies they want, LRG is just a middleman who's done all of the heavy lifting to make it easy for the little guy to get their game on disc / cartridge. The people who scalp LRG games only make 10 to 20 bucks at most because the copies of the games are usually already in the hands of the folks who want them.
Nintendo WAS artificially driving up demand because they often had more product on hand or were producing more. All of these limited game producers do a one and done. The analogy you're making is wrong. The whole NES classic / amiibo thing was frustrating, but at the same time the demand for those products is well above that of an indie game on disc.
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Anecdotally you may not have had an issue with purchasing games from LRG, but I've heard plenty of testimonials from people both on this forum and elsewhere who have. Either they can't buy the game because they were asleep or at work or whatever, or they get kicked out of their shopping cart as their making a purchase. I do think it's gotten better compared to when things first started though.
The scalper thing is tough to pin down, obviously. Looking at the games in my collection most of my games are going for about what I bought for them. Maybe like 5 dollars more. Some games, like S&S, are going for around 50-80, and Shantae RR is going for $150.
I imagine that the developers suggest a print run, but I think LRG is still the gatekeeper here. What if a publisher wanted to make 10,000 copies? 25,000 copies? Would LRG sign on for that? Tough to say, they are a small company, so making limited prints also fits with the size of their company. But then again, their name's "Limited Run" after all. Also, who makes the decision to do open preorder vs. not? I'm doubtful the developers make that call, but I could be wrong.
It's absolutely driving up demand because it's creating artificial scarcity, and there's no denying that. I can guarantee that if these games had regular standard retail releases, there wouldn't be so much hype around them. And if you want an example of that, there's a very damning bit 17 minutes in to the documentary on LRG that My Life in Gaming made, where Josh specifically talks about how people would cancel their orders the moment they saw that sales for a game were slowing and the stock wasn't clearing out within 24 hours. It's very clear to me. Also, as we've moved farther and farther past those first releases from LRG the demand isn't as intense as before, as you already mentioned in your first post. ;) People have clearly changed their buying habits from when Breach and Clear dropped.
EDIT: And let's not forget that LRG has also put out releases of games that are already available on physical elsewhere. I counted how many a few years back and it was around 23% at the time. The most egregious instance was where they released a game already available in North America on the PS4 and Wii U (Steamworld Heist/Dig)! It gets pretty hard to square that LRG is just "helping out the digital only developers" so to say.
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I am just pissed that there is not enough to go around. ***** scalpers who just buy all the games up and sell them for ridiculous prices. In fact if there were more to go around, then the scalpers would find themselves with a product that they are stuck with, and it would mean they would not get more then what they paid for when selling the games. ha ha.
Lucky for some of us we gamers have options like buying consoles with games already on them and thank God for ROMs and off brand consoles
If your poor like me then just read my signature. someday games may go up in price for retro and or even digital
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I'm a bit on the fence about them, because in one way it does give collectors a chance to get a physical copy in a world where digital will be king. And the downside of it is as others have mentioned the limitedness of the games can be off-putting due to high prices or if you miss the boat.
Usually if I want a limited game I will make sure I subscribe to the newsletters and what not to be given any of the latest info on availability so I can make a purchase or pre-order. Luckily for me there are not a whole bunch of limited releases I look forward to. But I do feel for completionist or genuine collectors missing out because of it.
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I am just pissed that there is not enough to go around. ***** scalpers who just buy all the games up and sell them for ridiculous prices. In fact if there were more to go around, then the scalpers would find themselves with a product that they are stuck with, and it would mean they would not get more then what they paid for when selling the games. ha ha.
Lucky for some of us we gamers have options like buying consoles with games already on them and thank God for ROMs and off brand consoles
If your poor like me then just read my signature. someday games may go up in price for retro and or even digital
you do realise that your only paying a premium for a physical copy and usually the collectors editions since normal examples when collectors editions are around rarely go for much more like others have mentioned maybe 10 to 20$ more. and even most CE don;t go for that much more. Usually prices are crazy around the period when they are released and than overtime it goes down a bit since hype is allot less.
Aside from that if we would look for gameplay your not missing out on much. all limited run games seem to be available online as a digital copy for a fraction of the price, cheap as chips like pretty much all digital indi games. so in terms of gameplay LRG should not matter. LRG just give those indi games a physical copy wich was otherwise not happening in terms of gameplay rarely if ever are you forced to get a physical copy.
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I'm a bit on the fence about them, because in one way it does give collectors a chance to get a physical copy in a world where digital will be king. And the downside of it is as others have mentioned the limitedness of the games can be off-putting due to high prices or if you miss the boat.
Aside from that if we would look for gameplay your not missing out on much. all limited run games seem to be available online as a digital copy for a fraction of the price, cheap as chips like pretty much all digital indi games. so in terms of gameplay LRG should not matter. LRG just give those indi games a physical copy wich was otherwise not happening in terms of gameplay rarely if ever are you forced to get a physical copy.
You two have summed up the whole matter right here. These companies are not gatekeeping the games away, most frustration is born of having to keep to the publisher's schedule instead of buying it on your own time.
I think looking over the release history of Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap really sums up how these things work & the supply vs. demand angle. At the time they announced Wonder Boy, the Asia edition was available to order & would feature the game in English. No one needed to buy the LRG version- but it still sold out, and people still wanted more- enough so that Nicalis picked up the license, and now the game is readily available at Gamestops for around 20 bucks. Despite that, people are still paying $30+ to get the LRG edition (or the switch version, which LRG did not have.) The Master system original outpaces both of those for value.
Despite the high-minded statements of 'preserving games for the future', these guys are focused squarely on the collector's market. They are the Franklin Mint of gaming publishers- trying to draw you in with promises of collectible, soon-to-be-scarce, valuable trinkets... that in reality will likely never gain more than their initial cost becuase nearly everyone who bought one hoarded it in a dark closet, waiting to turn a profit. Meanwhile the true collectibles will be the things that gain scarity from us using & loving them, breaking & throwing away enough that demand for the surviving pieces goes up.
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I have a lot to say on the matter... but I won't.
I'll just say I don't like it and for the most part I don't like the people who run the businesses either.
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I don't like them. There's more to it, but I won't get into it. It's all been said already.
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I don’t buy them. Seams more like a novelty item. To me they’re kinda like home brew or repro games.
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I don’t buy them. Seams more like a novelty item. To me they’re kinda like home brew or repro games.
2nd this
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To me they're like Kickstarter, something which initially looked very exciting but over time has shown itself to be a cardboard cut-out with nothing behind it.
The concept of games being released on physical is great, but the mechanism for reserving a game (be there and hope) is poor for consumers. In addition to that, the actual games themselves are more often than not little more than flash games which can be played online free. There is the occasional gem, but instead of actually delivering titles like Castle Crashers or the like, we're getting any old thing they can convince the creator to slap onto a disc.
Pricing's another problem - you've got these substandard games which cost more than you could buy a better game released via a standard publisher which has gone down in price a few weeks after release. Postage costs make this so much worse - Limited Run charge $15 to get a game to me in Europe - it seriously bumps up the investment needed to secure one.
I order occasionally, but only very occasionally, far too much dross - the interesting games (like Bomber Crew) tend to go with specialist or budget publishers rather than the limited ones.
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Hate em. In a similar fashion that I hated those scam companies that made you sign up and agree to keep buying albums from them every month so that you might eventually get a free one. I just want to buy something when I'm good and ready, not the very minute it drops or else loose a shot at ever having it at a reasonable price. That just plain sucks.
I pay no mind to these companies because while I know they produce games I'd like to have, I refuse to buy them on the publisher's schedule, and I'm sure as hell not paying a cent to a reseller. To me, these games wind up having a similar feel to them as "unlicensed" NES games. They don't really count as part of a console's physical library, since the publisher put in such a half-hearted attempt to actually produce them. Not everyone who even wants one, gets a shot at having one by the time you factor in all the people buying just to resell.
My opinion is they can all screw.
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Based on their announcements from E3 it further solidifies the idea that they are primarily focused squarely on the hardcore collector's market these days. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I've only ever bought from Limited Run for the one time and it was through a friend. It was the recently released Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon which by all accounts looks nice and as a fan of the Igavanias, this is pretty nice and worth it in my mind for what it is. That being said, its not my thing and after seeing that they were releasing single releases of the Jak and Daxter games for PS4 which are basically upscaled PS2 games was the point where I was like nope Im good but then I saw the line up at E3....
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The only Limited Run Games release that I’m genuinely interested in is Oddworld: Stranger’s Wrath HD, and quite frankly that’s only because I found out about it by happenstance. Most probably won’t get it, though – I’d rather get an OG XBOX instead. I sincerely could care less about LGR and any other of its imitators/doppelgängers.