Author Topic: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control  (Read 3663 times)

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2023, 08:31:05 am »
all hologram lables on pal games are identical they just have 2 different pictures depending on how you reflect them in the light it is all identical.

You have been posting one conversation in two separate threads, so this is in response to a comment elsewhere. I wasn't aware of that detail, as I do not own any PAL PlayStation releases. I watched an unboxing video verifying that this is true, so I appreciate being informed of this. However, regardless of whether the edited hologram labels are correct, they are disingenuous as mentioned before and should not be submitted.

you are right about that detail, one has the background text straight and one has the text at an angle it is a slight difference. That being said unless it's a sealed copy or if it's a copy with exclusive stickers you will see both on most games and only a chosen few might notice or value this. Because cases get replaced or maybe it was a different batch

otherwise they all have 2 different images depending on the angle how you look at them. and they both look the same except for the angle of the background text
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 08:45:16 am by sworddude »
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tripredacus

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2023, 11:29:24 am »
Thanks for the info, I did not know the hologram showed two different images. That post in the Adv Guide is just to indicate that a hologram is present, not be specific about what it is specifically.

leonefamily

PRO Supporter

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2023, 02:46:23 am »
I prefer just using the most accurate representation of the actual item variant instead of a better quality version that's missing "features". It looks ugly but it's very helpful for disambiguating a variant and to have as much accurate info as possible. Any pic/info is potentially temporary, if a better scan is made/found in the future it'll get updated at that time.

I personally use the Canon Lide 110 to do my scans, I got it second-hand for like 25 $ CAD. It works very well using my settings. If someone is purchasing one and wants to know which settings I'm using, just PM me.
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Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2023, 08:24:09 am »
Most, if not all, of the replacement images or edit rejections were done by me.

Under the current style guide rules, the holofoil is important information and should be considered as a component to complete artwork as it is a formal part of the packaging. For PlayStation and PlayStation 2 EU items, the holofoil is not always (but is usually) present, so providing the best image information to showcase packaging information is a detail in accordance to our guidelines. Something else to consider is that cases are often swapped on secondary markets, so knowing which items actually include a holofoil label is a detail many would find helpful.


As a collector of both PS1 and PS2 EU games ive added hundreds of photos to the EU entries within this database.

I must say i had no idea that the holofoils were preferable, ive never included these due to the fact that the only way to scan these is to keep the cover inside the game case.  And that means you will ALWAYS get an inferior scan of the actual artwork as the scan must scan through the plastic cover.  And lets face it, its rare to find an immaculate plastic PS1 case cover these days, or a PS2 cover for that matter.  These games have been stored on shelves and therefore 100% of front covers are scuffed to varying degrees.

Another reason that holofoil scans will 100% be inferior quality is the fact that when you scan the entire game the scanner doesnt close properly!  PS1 games are about 1cm thick and that means the scanner lid will remain open.  This ensures a bad scan 100% of the time.  PS2 games are slimmer but the scanner lid will still not close properly resulting in an inferior scan too.

Its always better quality to remove the PS1 or PS2 game cover from the case and scan it.  I always remove the back covers from the PS1 cases, which is fiddly but worth it for the image quality.

I can also add the issue that not many PS2 games have the holofoil on the front cover, theyre usually on the back cover.  Many PS2 games have been re-cased over the years and have been put into incorrect cases.  Old DVD cases for example.  Add to this the fact that there are TWO different PS2 holofoils in existence, and its not unusual for games to get re-housed in the wrong cases.  Only collectors will notice that a game is in its correct case from their experience.  But to be fair, thats one of the functions of using a collectors database, to learn how the original game was packaged.

You also have the issue of 'bigbox' PS1 releases which generally dont have any holofoil at all.  Although the Final Fantasy bigbox releases all have holofoils.

Maybe have a database entry on PS1/PS2 games to indicate the position of the holofoil?

I have around 500 PS1 games and 900 PS2 games, do you want me to go back and scan the covers with the holofoils? (you will get inferior scans to whats currently in the database)

My advice is to use cover scans that have been removed from their cases due to the very simple fact that these will be high quality images with all the detail.  The holofoils are not relevant or important to the image.  The fact that every game company releases their digital cover artwork images WITHOUT the holofoil is the strongest support that we dont use them in the database imo.  Keep the database images clean and high quality.

EDIT: i understand ive used the term 'holofoil' throughout when 'hologram' was probably the correct term used in this thread! lol
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 08:55:38 am by endemonadia »

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2023, 08:37:19 am »
I altered a couple of the really bad ones, but it is allot more work for info which I'd argue many would ignore. plus this new rule will result in allot of poor listings that looked perfectly fine prior to this

it's not scanned with the hologram btw you just insert a hologram of a box on an actually high quality scanned item that wasn't in the plastic case. it's impossible to scan it nicely in the orginal case even if said case was in flawless shape.

Agree +1

As i point out above, scanning through the case means you will get an inferior image 100% of the time.

And PS1 and PS2 collectors do not care about what little information the holofoil provides.  We know they exist and we know how they should be positioned.  They just get in the way of the cover art image imo.

tripredacus

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2023, 09:26:31 am »
Another reason that holofoil scans will 100% be inferior quality is the fact that when you scan the entire game the scanner doesnt close properly!  PS1 games are about 1cm thick and that means the scanner lid will remain open.  This ensures a bad scan 100% of the time.

You need to use a form or a guide to scan items with the lid open. The lid is just blocking light scatter and you can use anything to serve that function. I variously use blocking elements when scanning (even in general) or when I am scanning something that is too big. The alternative to that then is to take a photo instead. Not recommending going to a shmaxian degree using a lightbox. I don't try to scan games in cases or boxes, mainly only flat items. Photo for everything else. I used to just have a piece of wood against a wall I would take photos against, trying to get it as straight on as possible. Here is an example from when I was doing variation guides for Sega-16.

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2023, 12:38:20 pm »
Another reason that holofoil scans will 100% be inferior quality is the fact that when you scan the entire game the scanner doesnt close properly!  PS1 games are about 1cm thick and that means the scanner lid will remain open.  This ensures a bad scan 100% of the time.

You need to use a form or a guide to scan items with the lid open. The lid is just blocking light scatter and you can use anything to serve that function. I variously use blocking elements when scanning (even in general) or when I am scanning something that is too big. The alternative to that then is to take a photo instead. Not recommending going to a shmaxian degree using a lightbox. I don't try to scan games in cases or boxes, mainly only flat items. Photo for everything else. I used to just have a piece of wood against a wall I would take photos against, trying to get it as straight on as possible. Here is an example from when I was doing variation guides for Sega-16.


Im sure there are ways to mitigate the poorer quality when scanning the full game on the scanner.  My point is that scanning the insert is always going to yield better results, literally every time. Right?

dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2023, 12:59:33 pm »
Im sure there are ways to mitigate the poorer quality when scanning the full game on the scanner.  My point is that scanning the insert is always going to yield better results, literally every time. Right?

Perhaps so. Nevertheless, we are concerned about highlighting as much accuracy as possible for each specific item. So, if an item features a hologram label, the most accurate image would be one that includes it. Whether collectors are aware of its presence or not makes no difference, because we are making attempts to preserve correct data. This is not to say someone should go out of their way to re-scan art so that hologram labels are present on entry artwork. But, if someone were to do that and existing entry art is missing that information, it would be more valuable to our site and therefore approved, even if the overall quality of the scan or art lessens.

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2023, 01:34:12 pm »
Im sure there are ways to mitigate the poorer quality when scanning the full game on the scanner.  My point is that scanning the insert is always going to yield better results, literally every time. Right?

Perhaps so. Nevertheless, we are concerned about highlighting as much accuracy as possible for each specific item. So, if an item features a hologram label, the most accurate image would be one that includes it. Whether collectors are aware of its presence or not makes no difference, because we are making attempts to preserve correct data. This is not to say someone should go out of their way to re-scan art so that hologram labels are present on entry artwork. But, if someone were to do that and existing entry art is missing that information, it would be more valuable to our site and therefore approved, even if the overall quality of the scan or art lessens.

Ok that makes the requirements clearer.

Although i will still argue that the hologram is not part of the cover art and therefore it shouldnt be part of the cover art scans in the database.  As i already pointed out, the game companies themselves dont include the hologram when they produce cover art for commercial purposes.  The Hologram is a component of the physical game case/sleeve/housing and not the artwork.

Now, if there was a photo entry in the database for the physical game as it looks complete....

dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2023, 02:16:22 pm »
Ok that makes the requirements clearer.

Although i will still argue that the hologram is not part of the cover art and therefore it shouldnt be part of the cover art scans in the database.  As i already pointed out, the game companies themselves dont include the hologram when they produce cover art for commercial purposes.  The Hologram is a component of the physical game case/sleeve/housing and not the artwork.

Now, if there was a photo entry in the database for the physical game as it looks complete....

You're right—the hologram label isn't a part of the cover art design. However, cover art design is not what the front and back art slots are intended for, anyway, although many members think otherwise.

Physical game categories track physical products, so images should be of the item itself and not just cover art design. This is one reason why there are so many existing variant entries, because there is often some sort of label difference affixed to the packaging. So, with that explained, it only makes sense that hologram labels should also be included, because they are a component of the entire physical product.

Many other sites feature clean scans of inlay art. They are beneficial, but they do not always serve our site's needs as variant tracking is a focus.

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2023, 03:04:10 pm »
Ok that makes the requirements clearer.

Although i will still argue that the hologram is not part of the cover art and therefore it shouldnt be part of the cover art scans in the database.  As i already pointed out, the game companies themselves dont include the hologram when they produce cover art for commercial purposes.  The Hologram is a component of the physical game case/sleeve/housing and not the artwork.

Now, if there was a photo entry in the database for the physical game as it looks complete....

You're right—the hologram label isn't a part of the cover art design. However, cover art design is not what the front and back art slots are intended for, anyway, although many members think otherwise.

Physical game categories track physical products, so images should be of the item itself and not just cover art design. This is one reason why there are so many existing variant entries, because there is often some sort of label difference affixed to the packaging. So, with that explained, it only makes sense that hologram labels should also be included, because they are a component of the entire physical product.


This however is false because the hologram is literally a thing for almost every ps1 pal game. The hologram being there or not makes no difference at all.

I get different variants but the holograms in pal ps1 or ps2 games ain't it. let's say you had 2 to different 10 versions of said pal ps1 game they will all have that same hologram. The differenes found within said versions will be found elsewhere the hologram is pointless in this case.

You can only make this argument for a handfull of sports games or games that actually have unique stickers on the front that fit the game and only for that variant of the game. Holograms are however never the differentiating factor here.

Your confusing different versions with just generic lables that every game has.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 03:08:07 pm by sworddude »
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dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2023, 03:55:22 pm »
This however is false because the hologram is literally a thing for almost every ps1 pal game. The hologram being there or not makes no difference at all.

Your confusing different versions with just generic lables that every game has.

I'm not confusing anything. You're glancing over the entirety of my response. Let's omit the middle statement:

Quote
Physical game categories track physical products, so images should be of the item itself and not just cover art design. This is one reason why there are so many existing variant entries, because there is often some sort of label difference affixed to the packaging. So, with that explained, it only makes sense that hologram labels should also be included, because they are a component of the entire physical product.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 04:06:07 pm by dhaabi »

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2023, 04:38:18 pm »
This however is false because the hologram is literally a thing for almost every ps1 pal game. The hologram being there or not makes no difference at all.

Your confusing different versions with just generic lables that every game has.

I'm not confusing anything. You're glancing over the entirety of my response. Let's omit the middle statement:

Quote
Physical game categories track physical products, so images should be of the item itself and not just cover art design. This is one reason why there are so many existing variant entries, because there is often some sort of label difference affixed to the packaging. So, with that explained, it only makes sense that hologram labels should also be included, because they are a component of the entire physical product.

I saw it, but why bring up this middle section than, It's why I specifically focussed on that part. It's incorrect, hologram isn't why we have so many different variants. There are plenty of actual unique differences in which you have different variations among the same game.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 04:47:20 pm by sworddude »
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dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2023, 05:49:33 pm »
I saw it, but why bring up this middle section than, It's why I specifically focussed on that part. It's incorrect, hologram isn't why we have so many different variants. There are plenty of actual unique differences in which you have different variations among the same game.

Why mention this statement at all? Because the conversation relates to outer labels, not specifically hologram labels. Because hologram labels were already mentioned, I continued to use that type of label as an example to highlight that they're needed because we track physical products which isn't cover art alone.

It's unlikely that the presence of a hologram label is the sole difference between two unique items, but it could be possible. That is not what I am arguing at any point, though. Like I've already stated, plenty of variants relate to labels, whether you acknowledge that fact or otherwise. Below are types of labels I've come across which would often be lost if relying on cover art scans alone.

hologram label
https://vgcollect.com/item/30113
https://vgcollect.com/item/239460

regional labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/247896

rating labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/243123

edition labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/212154

distribution labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/241042

bundled set labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/240417

barcode labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/236002

store labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/249194
https://vgcollect.com/item/249195

promotion labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/209394

correction labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/184081


design differences labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/9954
https://vgcollect.com/item/9955

general outer labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/228196

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2023, 05:53:33 pm »
I saw it, but why bring up this middle section than, It's why I specifically focussed on that part. It's incorrect, hologram isn't why we have so many different variants. There are plenty of actual unique differences in which you have different variations among the same game.

Why mention this statement at all? Because the conversation relates to outer labels, not specifically hologram labels. Because hologram labels were already mentioned, I continued to use that type of label as an example to highlight that they're needed because we track physical products which isn't cover art alone.

It's unlikely that the presence of a hologram label is the sole difference between two unique items, but it could be possible. That is not what I am arguing at any point, though. Like I've already stated, plenty of variants relate to labels, whether you acknowledge that fact or otherwise. Below are types of labels I've come across which would often be lost if relying on cover art scans alone.

hologram label
https://vgcollect.com/item/30113
https://vgcollect.com/item/239460

regional labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/247896

rating labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/243123

edition labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/212154

distribution labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/241042

bundled set labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/240417

barcode labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/236002

store labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/249194
https://vgcollect.com/item/249195

promotion labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/209394

correction labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/184081


design differences labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/9954
https://vgcollect.com/item/9955

general outer labels
https://vgcollect.com/item/228196

I agree with most of these examples cause the lables are unique per item or just a small group of items. I've already given some examples of these more unique scenario's myself in previous posts.

Complaint about low quality scans in say pal ps1 section are usually for regular items with identical hologram lables though. and that is where I have an issue. because it wouldn't be needed there. It's just the pal standard.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 06:47:24 pm by sworddude »
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