General and Gaming > General
New Gaming Genre for Metroidvanias?
Cartagia:
--- Quote ---"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"
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That's pretty much it, except most would say abilities not upgrades.
The reason most of your examples are not Metroidvania is that they are not progress-gated by abilities. Getting a key is not getting an ability. Getting collectibles to unlock an area (like Mario 64's stars) is not an ability. Unlocking areas through story beats (GTA) is not an ability. Elden Ring and the Souls-games have no abilities. You just... progress.
A Metroidvania might have a platform you need to get on to advance the story in the first room that is just out of reach until you get the double jump and have to come back later. Having just replayed Metroid Prime, it is 100% a Metroidvania. I was shocked at how well it moved that formula to first person. That's how Arkham Asylum works, even though its 3rd person. But Arkham City is completely open from the start. Progress is hindered by story beats, and the abilities only open secrets, not progress.
TotK isn't a Metroidvania because after the tutorial you can do anything in any order. It has no ability gates, because you have all of your abilities, but there are a couple of Zelda's that are arguable - namely Link Between Worlds, since you can get the abilities s at your own pace, and they aren't locked behind story beats.
Can't speak to infamous because I haven't played it.
marvelvscapcom2:
--- Quote from: Cartagia on February 13, 2025, 07:54:26 am ---
--- Quote ---"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"
--- End quote ---
That's pretty much it, except most would say abilities not upgrades.
The reason most of your examples are not Metroidvania is that they are not progress-gated by abilities. Getting a key is not getting an ability. Getting collectibles to unlock an area (like Mario 64's stars) is not an ability. Unlocking areas through story beats (GTA) is not an ability. Elden Ring and the Souls-games have no abilities. You just... progress.
A Metroidvania might have a platform you need to get on to advance the story in the first room that is just out of reach until you get the double jump and have to come back later. Having just replayed Metroid Prime, it is 100% a Metroidvania. I was shocked at how well it moved that formula to first person. That's how Arkham Asylum works, even though its 3rd person. But Arkham City is completely open from the start. Progress is hindered by story beats, and the abilities only open secrets, not progress.
TotK isn't a Metroidvania because after the tutorial you can do anything in any order. It has no ability gates, because you have all of your abilities, but there are a couple of Zelda's that are arguable - namely Link Between Worlds, since you can get the abilities s at your own pace, and they aren't locked behind story beats.
Can't speak to infamous because I haven't played it.
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So basically you gotta get abilities but in a non guided, non linear way? So for example Jak and Daxter wouldnt count because you gotta aquire the abilitiy to use the hover craft to fly over the lava as part of the story. Not from spontaneous exploration? Ok. That makes it clearer, abilities is certainly less vague then "upgrades" but I just wish more people were as clear with the defining of it.
I feel under your definition both Doom and Mega Man and especially echoes of wisdom would qualify as you need abilities to advance. I remember in mega man franchise certain bosses are unbeatable without aquiring an abilitiy prior. Although I could be recollecting wrong. Its been a while. And with echoes of wisdom you gotta find the echo abilities spontaneously and they open passages later. Its organic in the sense. Let me know if im missing something that seperates those games.
Either way It feels better defined now with the definition you gave. Upgrades and keys could be thousands of games. Open exploration ability gates is much more narrowed down.
Cartagia:
Mega Man is stage based, and you don't need specific boss powers to advance, so it wouldn't qualify. Doom is also stage based.
I haven't played Echoes of Wisdom, so I can't speak to that one.
undertakerprime:
--- Quote from: marvelvscapcom2 on February 12, 2025, 05:36:51 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cartagia on February 12, 2025, 10:14:54 am ---
--- Quote from: marvelvscapcom2 on February 07, 2025, 04:17:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: redblaze57 on January 20, 2025, 07:03:34 pm ---At this point I'm not sure what there's more of... Metal sub-genres, or Video game sub-genres.
Honestly trying to say a game that's "soul's like" and "Metroidvania" is it's own genre sounds just about as ridiculous as "Pirate Metal" being it's own genre.
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I agree whole heartedly with this and other comments. Glad someone finally said this.
I mean at what point does the genre lose all meaning? If theirs gotta be entire threads arguing what is and what isnt metroidvania then it means 1 of 2 things. Either the genre is not well defined or isnt necessary at all to begin with. Im gonna go with both.
Metroidvania doesnt exist because those games arent original in genre nor unique in it. And the definitions gamers use to describe what a Metroidvania even is always changes. I mean now fps and 3rd person adventure games? GTA vice city is a metroidvania. I disregard the entire sub genre.
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I don't understand why you are so dead-set against subgenres. I don't see any issue having a term or category that represents a specific style or type of gameplay. No different that calling different kinds of sports games "sports sims" vs "arcade sports". Yeah they both revolve around sports, but they also have very different intents and design philosophies behind them. And yeah, I'd say Pirate Metal is a thing. Alestorm and Amon Amarth are both metal bands, but they are stylistically and thematically very different from each other.
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Not sure another instance ive ever displayed distain over a sub genre on here.
Tldr - Metroid is not unique enough to define a genre. And metroidvania is a poorly defined concept that people fight over all the time. Mostly because its unnecessary.
Long - Not to mention metroidvania isnt a sub genre. Its a sub-sub genre. I love sub genres so long as they are well defined and practical and "metroidvania" is quite frankly niether. Which is why anywhere its mentioned people sit around and argue of what it even is. When 90 percent of what people talk about with a sub genre is defining what it even is. It doesn't need to exist. Because its just a terrible poorlly defined faux category. The little nuances people come up with to seperate metroid from anything else are for 1. Not even original to metroid. And 2. Not warranting a classification in itself.
For example. 3rd person shooter is a sub genre. Shooter is a genre. Metroid prime is a first person shooter. Thats its sub genre. "Metroidvania" is a sub-sub genre and is about as vague as can be. Doom is more like metroid prime then Super Metroid. And I can draw 50 more similarities to Mega Man with Metroid than I can to castlevania itself.
What has been defined to me as metroidvania is
"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"
But of course this defintion changes depending on who you talk to. Because again. The genre is not well defined and is made up as we go. But if we do adhere to this.
Ok so like
1. Pretty much every top down Zelda game and every LTTP clone ever made. (Singular map with web like rooms that require keys to access doors and special weapons to beat specific bosses. Also predates Metroid)
2. Grand theft auto vice city (singular map. Must complete missions and aquire suits to access missions which eventually unlock starfish island and previous inaccessible parts of the map which you cant access unless you aquire not only special weapons, cars, tanks, or even suits)
3. God of War 2018
4. Elden Ring
5. Elder Scrolls and Fable franchises
6. Mega Man - plays similar to Metroid. Linear. Move backwards through corridor levels. Aquire suits to access new levels. Need powers to beat certain bosses. Side scroller cannon shooter)
7. Gris (gotta backtrack to aquire orbs that open constelation path ways and you cant proceed without doing such. You also earn new colors through exploration. Beating the game is impossible without building these star paths.
8. Super Mario 64 (the levels are interconnected to the main room which is toadstool castle. Making it technically one giant level design. In which to access rooms. You must collect stars. And often times need to obtain the flying ability to even get said stars. Metal mario ability to access others)
The problem isnt with sub genres. Its with this sub genre. For example you have Batman Arkham Knight as a metroidvania. Control? I mean why not TOTK and Infamous? The first time I seen a forum call Control a metroidvania I had known it went too far. It lost all meaning that day. At least before it was delegated to basically side scrolling 2D platformers. I just wish it was called "metroid elements" rather than making a whole genre. That I could grasp.
Metroid prime is about as much a metroidvania as Call Of Duty Zombies.
I do agree on certain genres being awesome to classify. For example JRPG vs RPG. Nu metal vs metal. So I do enjoy classifying things. It's one of my favorite things. Even with sites like this. I enjoy categories. I just want it to be clear. Metroidvania is never clear to me.
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Yeah, there seems to be different definitions of what constitutes a Metroidvania, and IMO it seems to have changed over time.
Originally, I understood a Metroidvania as a literal combination of Metroid and SotN: a game that plays like Metroid (side-scroller with the power ups unlocking new areas and backtracking) but includes RPG, stat-building elements like SotN.
But later the definition seemed to start encompassing only games with Metroid elements and no SotN RPG-esque stat-building, which IMO made the Metroidvania label misleading. Many games with that label are not a combination, they’re just Metroid-likes.
Bottom line is, a subgenre shouldn’t be so loosely-defined and open to interpretation.
--- Quote from: Cartagia on February 07, 2025, 11:40:48 am ---Figured like this was a good place to roll around with this list that I've been thinking about: All Metroidvanias I've played, ranked:
* Hollow Knight
* Blasphemous II
* Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
* Control
* Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
* Batman: Arkham Asylum
* Metroid Prime Remastered
* Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin
* Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow
* Metroid Dread
* Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia
* Super Metroid
* Ori and the Blind Forest
* Blasphemous
* The Messenger
* Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
* Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night
* Guacamelee
* Metroid Prime (Original)
* Caslevania: Harmony of Dissonance
* Shantae and the Pirate's Curse
* Gato Roboto
* Shantae: Half-Genie Hero
* Yoku's Island Express
* Metroid
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This gives me a good list of games I should try, thanks.
If I was going to rank the ones I’ve played it might go something like:
Super Metroid
Castlevania Symphony of the Night
Blasphemous 2
Blasphemous
Batman Arkham Asylum
Metroid Zero Mission
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night
Castlevania Aria of Sorrow
Metroid Prime
Castlevania Portrait of Ruin
Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow
Metroid Fusion
Castlevania Order of Ecclesia
Castlevania Harmony of Dissonance
Metroid Prime 2
Hollow Knight
Timespinner
Shantae and the Pirate’s Curse
Blaster Master
Shantae: Risky’s Revenge
Axiom Verge
Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
Iconoclasts
Metroid
Metroid II:Return of Samus
Castlevania 2: Simon’s Quest
No rating because not enough play time to judge:
Salt and Sanctuary
The Last Faith
dhaabi:
--- Quote from: Cartagia on February 07, 2025, 11:40:48 am ---Figured like this was a good place to roll around with this list that I've been thinking about: All Metroidvanias I've played, ranked:
--- End quote ---
I came across the trailer for Laika: Through the Blood the other day and have been meaning to ask what someone like you who's a fan of these types of games thinks about it. I generally don't play these kinds of games, but it seems somewhat unique from an outsider's perspective. I also just realized after skimming through its Steam store page description that it's being teased as the first "Motorvania."
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