Best 'classic' PC to begin collecting for?...

[BarbaricAvatar]

It was probably about the time that Windows became popular that PC started referring to IBM computers only. After that, PC tended to refer to Window-compatible systems.

Back in the days of the Apple II and C64, there was another term; "IBM Compatible", which referred to IBM only programs.

Which is not true, the full name and the abrrev are too different things there are ads back then that say "Is Apple II better than PC" or "Will Atari kill PC" Or "Atari will try to make a PC clone to see how the market responds.)

I already showed you proof from actual Apple II ads calling themselves PCs. And here's the TRS-80 one I was thinking of when I mentioned the TRS-80, starring Hulk himself in the ad:

Same as people didn't differentiate IBM/Windows PCs as the only thing called PC until later. Back then, they were all called PCs. It was a buzzword they used to try and get wary people to accept computers in their homes. You've got to remember, back then computers weren't like they are now, not everyone had a computer in their home. Not even half of the nation had computers in their home.

Yeah but, what the manufacturers call things and what the consumers call things are sometimes totally different. Say i grew my own Oranges and sold you a bag for $1 and told you they were Machetes. Would you offer your partner a Machete or an Orange?

PC's have always been the IBM Compatibles for those of us who had one. Apple's were Apple's and Atari's were Atari's. There was a transition from calling them IBM Compatibles to PC Compatibles to simply PC's. But Apple's did not come under the PC Compatible umbrella because they weren't.
If Nintendo marketed the upgraded 3DS as an Air Hockey Table, would you be having a similar discussion in 30 years time telling people that the 3DS was a classic Air Hockey Table?

PS I don't know what planet you're from, but on mine IBM's/PC's were popular in homes in the late 80's.

[burningdoom]

We're talking about Apple IIs, TRS-80s, and C64s. That wasn't the late 80s, that was the early 80s.

Even then, the average American still didn't have a PC in their home in the late 80s. It was more business people, people with a nice income, schools, and the PC gamers. It was definitely more popular than it was in the early 80s, but still not close to what it became when the internet became easily accessible.

You guys should check out a book called "The Illustrated History of Electronic Gaming". Fantastic book that goes into great detail about a lot of this stuff. I can't recommend it enough. Such an entertaining read and so chock full of information about this particular time in PC gaming (and a lot of other stuff).

[BarbaricAvatar]

WTG in "offering solution" over admitting you're wrong.

[burningdoom]

I've shown video evidence from more than one company.  Now watch this ad from Commodore:

Yet "no one" called anything other than IBM PCs back then, huh? I guess Apple, Commodore, and Radio Shack are "no one".

[BarbaricAvatar]

I've shown video evidence from more than one company.  Now watch this ad from Commodore:

Yet "no one" called anything other than IBM PCs back then, huh? I guess Apple, Commodore, and Radio Shack are "no one".

I covered that a few posts back with the definitions of IBM/Compatibles and Apples. You read that right? Oh. Of course.

I accept you're the go-to guy for Nintendo games and consoles, but one would be better off talking to a muppet without a hand up it's bum for PC knowledge.
You said so yourself you didn't have a PC and neither did anyone in your shantytown, so how could you possibly know what the differences between IBM/Compatibles/Apple amongst users were in the day?

[sin2beta]

I've shown video evidence from more than one company.  Now watch this ad from Commodore:

Yet "no one" called anything other than IBM PCs back then, huh? I guess Apple, Commodore, and Radio Shack are "no one".

While this is true, you can also find ads that directly link the term "pc" to a specific type of computer. The "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" commercials illustrate this. Apple was not positioning it's Mac line to the umbrella term that all computers (even the mac) are under. They were comparing themselves to Windows. Now there are reasons for this terms history.

The term "personal computer" dates back well before the era this thread relates to. Wikipedia lists the term as dating back to 1963. In this case, the term is really more a small computer for the home than a brand. Then as the personal computer became a reality, different names popped up. Commodore 64, Amiga, Apple ii,ZX Spectrum, TRS 80, Atari 800, etc. I tend to call these types of machines Microcomputers.But they were also certainly personal computers.

People would say I have an Apple, C64, MSX, or a trash 80. In a few cases, people may even say that they had a wang.  :P Despite the brand, people rarely said I had a personal computer or pc. That was too generic and non-descriptive.

Now enter IBM, with all of its non-creativity. They named their computer the PC 5150, The PC XT, or the PCJr. Generally, you would not say I have an IBM (not descriptive enough) you also wouldn't say 5150. PC denoted enough.

Then DOS became Windows, etc etc. and now PC means Windows. But it is directly due to IBM being a creativeless group in terms of marketing. Even Linux machines are not usually called PCs in popular vernacular. Usually Linux Box or something of the like is used. It's an interesting history. But PC did come to mean IBM (early/mid 80s) -> DOS/IBM compatible (late 80s) -> Windows (early 90s).

[burningdoom]

I've shown video evidence from more than one company.  Now watch this ad from Commodore:

Yet "no one" called anything other than IBM PCs back then, huh? I guess Apple, Commodore, and Radio Shack are "no one".

I covered that a few posts back with the definitions of IBM/Compatibles and Apples. You read that right? Oh. Of course.

I accept you're the go-to guy for Nintendo games and consoles, but one would be better off talking to a muppet without a hand up it's bum for PC knowledge.
You said so yourself you didn't have a PC and neither did anyone in your shantytown, so how could you possibly know what the differences between IBM/Compatibles/Apple amongst users were in the day?

1. I never said I didn't have a PC. I said the average American didn't back then. I had a C64 until we got a Windows machine.

2. I never once specified "amongst users" nor did I specify any group. jakandsig said that no one called non-IBM computers PCs. I pointed out that sure they did back then all the time in ads and that it was a buzzword back then (hence showing the ads).

3. Yeah, I read your post, then I showed you ads where those very companies used the word PC or personal computer. Personally, I'm taking the actual ads as evidence over joe-schmoe on a message board telling me his word is somehow evidence otherwise.

4. Before you go getting all pissy and start getting mouthy with me, try to keep up with what's going on or at least try to have a discussion like an adult.

[BarbaricAvatar]

I've shown video evidence from more than one company.  Now watch this ad from Commodore:

Yet "no one" called anything other than IBM PCs back then, huh? I guess Apple, Commodore, and Radio Shack are "no one".

I covered that a few posts back with the definitions of IBM/Compatibles and Apples. You read that right? Oh. Of course.

I accept you're the go-to guy for Nintendo games and consoles, but one would be better off talking to a muppet without a hand up it's bum for PC knowledge.
You said so yourself you didn't have a PC and neither did anyone in your shantytown, so how could you possibly know what the differences between IBM/Compatibles/Apple amongst users were in the day?

1. I never said I didn't have a PC. I said the average American didn't back then. I had a C64 until we got a Windows machine.

2. I never once specified "amongst users" nor did I specify any group. jakandsig said that no one called non-IBM computers PCs. I pointed out that sure they did back then all the time in ads and that it was a buzzword back then (hence showing the ads).

3. Yeah, I read your post, then I showed you ads where those very companies used the word PC or personal computer. Personally, I'm taking the actual ads as evidence over joe-schmoe on a message board telling me his word is somehow evidence otherwise.

4. Before you go getting all pissy and start getting mouthy with me, try to keep up with what's going on or at least try to have a discussion like an adult.

Who's getting pissy?! You're the one posting nonsense and refusing to back down even though more and more people are joining the joyful discussion to tell you how utterly clueless you are on this subject. ;)

It doesn't matter what people said in adverts, there was only one PC and that was the IBM/Compatible. Simply because Apples were Apples (Or "Mac's" to people who had one), C64's were C64's (or Home Computers in other territories), CPC's were Home Computers, Spectrum's were Home Computers.

Just because a computer/games system has a keyboard doesn't make it a PC, no matter what the marketer's say. Or are you really that gullible that you take everything said in adverts as unfiltered reality?

If Nintendo made a qwerty keyboard for the WiiU, would that then be a PC if Satoru Iwata said it was in a TV campaign?

[burningdoom]

Posting nonsense? I've posted evidence more than once now...where is yours other than you say so?  A single piece of evidence to counter-act mine?

And your argument seems to keep changing. The discussion originally was that no one called them PCs. Which I then countered with sure they do, they used it in marketing all the time. Then after I showed some ads proving that. The argument morphed into "users" don't say that and I'm not a user so how would I have a clue? (even though I had a C64 and a windows PC.) Now the argument is that I'm taking adverts as unfiltered reality and I'm gullible to believe it.

I've never once backed down from my argument that they were indeed referred to as PCs for a time, and I still don't. I know that PCs are Windows-systems nowadays. But the fact still stands that non-IBMs were referred to as PCs for a time. Maybe not by you and your friends, but my evidence is irrefutable that it was referred to as such. And it's not just one commercial or even one company's commercial, but multiple ones.

I don't know if you were referring to Sin2Beta's post when you mentioned others joining in, but he's pretty much saying what I was saying but you keep trying to twist into other things:

The term "personal computer" dates back well before the era this thread relates to. Wikipedia lists the term as dating back to 1963. In this case, the term is really more a small computer for the home than a brand. Then as the personal computer became a reality, different names popped up. Commodore 64, Amiga, Apple ii,ZX Spectrum, TRS 80, Atari 800, etc. I tend to call these types of machines Microcomputers. But they were also certainly personal computers.

But since you believe your own word over the likes of Commodore, Apple, and Radio Shack here's some more evidence that I'm sure you'll somehow refute as me talking out my ass or somehow just being too gullible to believe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer#Terminology

According to Wikipedia, the term dates back before IBM ever put a PC in a home setting. But how could that be if PC always meant IBMs only...hmm.

Here's an entry on the Commodore PET. The first commercially successful mass-market PC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_PET

Or how about the Amstrad CPC? I don't even need to post a link for that one, do I? It's in the name for crying out loud!

But you seem to be stuck on the fact that you and your group of computer friends didn't call them PCs, therefore none of the rest of it counts. And that marketing terms, somehow don't count (despite the fact that they're the ones that made the machines).

PC gaming may not be my first forte, but I'm VERY interested in the history of gaming and have a shelf full of books on the subject.

Or does Apple, Commodore, Radio Shack, Amstrad, and Wikipedia still count as "no one"? The term has evolved with home computers to mean what it means today. I mean come on man! How much evidence do you need to concede that others did call them PCs back then?! Now, please show me some evidence otherwise.

[davifus]

Im not versed, known, approximately close, beside, within, anywhere near the knowledge on oldcomputers, but its getting a little out of hand here. Im just saying but there is a lot of hostility here.

[BarbaricAvatar]

Im not versed, known, approximately close, beside, within, anywhere near the knowledge on oldcomputers, but its getting a little out of hand here. Im just saying but there is a lot of hostility here.

Not at all. 
It's always fun watching people make utter fools of themselves. Haven't laughed this much since that Will Ferrell + cheerleader vid.

Posting nonsense? I've posted evidence more than once now...where is yours other than you say so?  A single piece of evidence to counter-act mine?

I don't need evidence, i have experience. As do the other posters who counter your argument.

PC gaming may not be my first forte, but I'm VERY interested in the history of gaming and have a shelf full of books on the subject.

You weren't actually active during this period of gaming then, so this "qualified opinion" of yours is just based on hearsay.
The rest of us know that you can read-up on anything through thousands of books, but you don't get to call yourself an expert if you haven't used any of the items in question during the period. It's like being a Mac-addict and reading through the "Junior Guide to Microsoft" and then applying for work in Windows Tech-help. Clueless doesn't even begin to cover it.

And your argument seems to keep changing. The discussion originally was that no one called them PCs. Which I then countered with sure they do, they used it in marketing all the time.

Marketers are not consumers. Duh.

I've never once backed down from my argument that they were indeed referred to as PCs for a time, and I still don't. I know that PCs are Windows-systems nowadays. But the fact still stands that non-IBMs were referred to as PCs for a time.

Except they weren't. There was always the IBM/PC Compatibles, and the others known by name. IBM had a range of PC-entitled computers and surprise, surprise that's where the expression "PC Compatibles" comes from. Even if guest Commodore activist Turnip McTurgeltoo said the C64 was a "Personal Computer", good for him. It was not a PC, or PC Compatible and even Commodore customer care would never say it was (Though in this particular instance, i can only surmise as i don't have direct experience of Commodore Customer Care - See what i did there? I admitted i had no actual hands-on experience of something. You should try it sometime).
I'm sure if i looked hard enough i could find some official Commodore documents to reflect this, or some advert on youtube that shows a big-haired brunette with bright red lipstick using a headset the size of a satellite; but i don't have as much free time as most.

But since you believe your own word over the likes of Commodore, Apple, and Radio Shack here's some more evidence...
Or how about the Amstrad CPC? I don't even need to post a link for that one, do I? It's in the name for crying out loud!

Except no one called it a PC - Which is the whole point of this discussion. Funnily enough the CPC was known as a Micro Computer (again i have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of this). Here, as you like adverts so much:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vClQZZO-TQ

There is actually huge diversity in the world and just because something is popular in your tiny bubble doesn't actually mean it's the norm. You have great difficulty grasping this concept. Prior to using the internet i'd never heard of Radio Shack and neither had anyone outside of your country. I know this sounds strange to you but there are actually a whole range of electrical stores, systems, names and identifications outside of whatever zit of existence you reside in.

This appears to have turned into a Q3 vs UT style discussion. Though the difference here would be that you haven't actually played either game but reckon Q3 is better just because Stephen Hawking said it was once on NBS Kids.

[sin2beta]

Q3 is better just because Stephen Hawking said it was once on NBS Kids.

I SO wish this actually did happen. Stephen Hawking is the f&#*ing quake master.

[burningdoom]

So the only evidence you post to counter-act mine is in French...okay then, because we all obviously speak French here.

I give up. Despite the overwhelming evidence I've posted to show otherwise between videos and Wikipedia, your best argument is that I have no clue what I'm talking about because I wasn't there...except I was. I already told you I had a C64. I don't know what to say anymore if actual video and documented Wikipedia evidence shows you that they were pushed as PCs in the early days. You're right, and I'm wrong. None one ever called them PCs, despite the commercials saying them right there for us to see (of course the English language would consider the people in those commercials and the people that wrote the Wikipedia articles as "someone" rather than "no one"). 

[BarbaricAvatar]