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General and Gaming => General => Topic started by: justin8301 on May 29, 2019, 04:45:57 pm
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I've been playing the Castlevania Collection on the Switch and originally I had no intention of using save states; but I'm at the point where I'm not sure if I have to time to beat some of these old games with out them. I kinda have mixed feelings about it, on one hand, save states don't do anything to make the encounters easier; ie the enemies arent nerfed and I'm not buffed; but on the other the game originally did not have the ability to save, so you are playing the game in a way that the creators never intended.
I think I'm leaning towards not cheating, the more I think about it I start to realize that saving in a game has pretty much become the standard and that if the original developers created the same games now, they would probably have followed modern trends and included the ability to save your progress.
Thoughts? Opinions?
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"Cheating" is only something that matters in competition. Are you doing something to get an advantage over another actual person or if participating in an event? Then that's cheating. Playing a singleplayer game how you want to play is just about having the experience you want. I think the difficulty in a lot of those old games are very frustrating and a lot of the time created with a very artificial difficulty.
As a kid, I never beat a lot of retro games. They were ridiculously hard, on purpose, to prolong the games length, so I use save states all the time in retro games now if I can. It takes a lot of the tedium out of the game of having to constantly replay through sections, especially if the boss fights are frustrating.
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I use save states a lot on Virtual Console and emulators. It's just not always feasible to play for long stints sometimes, things come up suddenly too. I think its just an artifact of the time it was made, not an intentional difficulty for the player to just deal with. I've even used save states on some games with saves that were kinda brutal about it like Mother.
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I use them as time savers. I’ve made it to this point. I could do it again, I just don’t have the time.
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Bingo! Its all about time for me too. I just finished Mega Man 6 using save states the whole time knowing full well that the last time I played it was when I rented it back in the 90s. So I have the memory of the painstaking time that each level and boss takes to learn. I dont have to relive that part now as part time gamer, full time husband, father, provider. I recently also watched Arcus live on twich get to Wart in SMB2 only to mess it up. So he went back to the drawing board, loaded a save state @ Wart and practiced for twenty mins. He then loaded the cart back up and got a personal best of 8.92mins.
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Completely fine with it, especially when otherwise the punishment for failure is having to restart the entire game from scratch.
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Im glad everyone seems to feel the same way about this.
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Speed runners practice certain hard parts on save states, it's only logical since otherwise it could take ages before you get good practice in late in the game.
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I think if someone considers save states as a way of cheating, that person should also consider emulation as a whole as cheating as well.
As for me, I've almost never played games using (unofficial) emulators*. But whenever I play on one of my mini consoles, I don't see any problem in using save states... If the option is there, it is up to the player to decide whether to use it or not.
* Not that I am against PC emulation or console hacking, it's just that I am too dumb to be able to install an emulator (or almost any other program for that matter) on my PC, and I've never seem myself wanting to play a game so much to the point of going through the trouble of learning how to properly use a personal computer... haha
Most people think I'm joking when I try to explain them my inability with these machines, but...
My major was in Philosophy, y'know? The only things I can do with my computer are typing on Microsoft Word and (barely) accessing the internet... Haha
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I used save states whenever I could when I played retro games on my PC back in the day. It was for convenience, and there is no harm in doing it.
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I don't think it's cheating, but I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on save scumming.
I know a lot of folks think save scumming is cheating, but I feel like it's really no different than using save states in general.
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From the very most pedantic of technical standpoints, sure- it isn't how the game was designed to be played, therefore it's an advantage not given to the average player.
However- Nobody, but the most gatekeepery, dickish, must-prove-I'm-superior gamer is going to give a flying fuck about it. The old school gameplay style of forced repetition, dying & starting over until you've mastered the controls & can play through the whole game in one multi-hour sitting, does not jive with the modern style of gameplay. In today's world, games have to fit into a pretty busy lifestyle- this is why all 3 of the current systems let you suspend gameplay at a moment's notice. It's also why the modular 'take me with you' Switch is so damn popular. If you wanna tweak your single-player, offline game so you can re-start from somewhere other than stage 1, you go for it. It's your game.
Now me, I don't use save states becuase I don't emulate. I do, however, straight-up cheat like a mofo! I prefer level select, for obvious reasons, but if that's not an option? I'll take 99 lives & free weapon upgrades & brute force my way through, sure! I mean, obviously I play clean to start, enjoy the game as is- but when I decide it's time to make the credits roll? Off to Game FAQs for some help, cuz nobody got time for this shit no more :D
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I don't think it's cheating, but I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on save scumming.
I know a lot of folks think save scumming is cheating, but I feel like it's really no different than using save states in general.
I'm a rampant Save Scummer because I play visual novels and usually the most time efficient way to play is making a very organized system of saves at every junction. It can easily save you hours of skipping through text you read previously. X_X
I think some games kind of require save scumming. Like if you lose too many fighters in Fire Emblem you'd seriously be hurting. So it might make a lot of sense sometimes to restart the battle if you botched it up. Also, save scumming away typhoons in Harvest Moon was pretty common among the fan base because it could easily wipe out most of your farm if you're unlucky.
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I would consider it cheating, yes. Anything that alters the original gameplay outside of the way it was originally programs is technically cheating if used to get through the game. With that said, i've never had any moral objection to cheating to get through games. I used to do it when I was a kid in order to see levels further in the game that I either wasn't good enough to reach, or the game was so broken and unfair that cheating was likely my only option to get more bang for my buck. In the case of competitions, yes, cheating is not okay, but the vast majority of people that use them are not using them to compete in any way, shape or form.
I use save states sometimes when emulating, but only because I don't have the motivation to go through the whole game again if I have to get up and do something else.
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I use them as time savers. I’ve made it to this point. I could do it again, I just don’t have the time.
Yup, this is me.
Years ago, I actually had the time to play a lot and replay sections multiple times until I got it right. I’ve beaten a handful of tough games legit (on the original hardware) so I know I could do it given enough time.
Nowadays, as a *GULP* RESPONSIBLE adult, I rarely have the time to play much. Save states give me a means to finish games I normally wouldn’t be able to devote the time to, or to relive games I’ve already beaten.
As an example, about 25 years ago I beat Revenge of Shinobi in one long session. A few years ago I replayed the game via emulation but used save states to get through it. I knew I could have beaten it again with enough time, save states just make it easier to play in smaller chunks of time.
Funny thing is, I used to use the turbo function on my NES Advantage all the time, but now I wonder if that could be considered cheating ;D
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"Cheating" is only something that matters in competition. Are you doing something to get an advantage over another actual person or if participating in an event? Then that's cheating. Playing a singleplayer game how you want to play is just about having the experience you want. I think the difficulty in a lot of those old games are very frustrating and a lot of the time created with a very artificial difficulty.
As a kid, I never beat a lot of retro games. They were ridiculously hard, on purpose, to prolong the games length, so I use save states all the time in retro games now if I can. It takes a lot of the tedium out of the game of having to constantly replay through sections, especially if the boss fights are frustrating.
All of this post.kamikazekeeg
Save states on PC games was the standard, even on games made in 1991 Duke Nukem 1 the platformer. tells you to use save states after each level if you wanted to keep a high score. however if you used the health or guns cheat during the level or game at anytime your score would reset to 0. If you in a competition with someone else and you used special combos or cheats to beat them them thats not right. But games like Mortal Kombat encourage cheating though.
I used save states to beat hard sections of games like Doom and Duke Nukem 3D, that was when I was not using the invincibility cheat. Not cheating is really only used for personal preference or bragging rights when playing on singleplayer
Most early console gaming however didn't include the ability to save naturally probally because of how difficult it was to program? or the cost of adding a battery in the cartridge? I don't really know. But most older/retro PC games actually let you save at will
Some console games required a password feature but it's only cheating if you never played the games before and looked up the password on the Internet. Cheating is a faster way to get through a game. and some cheats add to certain video games.
But with Duke Nukem 3D the manual has 3 cheats inside of it just for anyone's knowledge
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Well as someone who beat alot of these retro games on their original platforms. No it's not cheating to play them with save states but my sense of accomplishment is definitely not the same. It's just fact that it does make it alot easier to beat these games with save states but honestly if im going to play Blaster Master,Batman,Mega Man,Castlevaina and the rest of their kind ever again it will be with the use of save states.
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Sometimes a game is so difficult especially a long game with limited lives or limited continues. Save states can sometimes not work to our advantage. Like when we save a game on the last life or last continue. Save States can become a pain in the ass, with loading them each and every time we die in some video games.
Save States can't really help us in games with limited continues or limited lives
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Sometimes a game is so difficult especially a long game with limited lives or limited continues. Save states can sometimes not work to our advantage. Like when we save a game on the last life or last continue. Save States can become a pain in the ass, with loading them each and every time we die in some video games.
Save States can't really help us in games with limited continues or limited lives
Ehm with save states you have unlimited lives. There is not a single disadvantage of having save states.
The only penalty is that your losing some time when speedrunning if you die during a run wich is far less cruel than restarting the game from the very beginning.
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Sometimes a game is so difficult especially a long game with limited lives or limited continues. Save states can sometimes not work to our advantage. Like when we save a game on the last life or last continue. Save States can become a pain in the ass, with loading them each and every time we die in some video games.
Save States can't really help us in games with limited continues or limited lives
Ehm with save states you have unlimited lives. There is not a single disadvantage of having save states.
The only penalty is that your losing some time when speedrunning if you die during a run wich is far less cruel than restarting the game from the very beginning.
I was talking about dying on the last life or continue or saving at the wrong time. lets say you are going up against a boss with little health and you saved on the last life or continue, with little health, in that case scenario you are stuck without using cheats with a one or few hit death against a full powered boss, and your save state was saved stuck with low health, and no more lives or continues are left in your only save state,
yes you can keep repeating the boss fight over and over again but you won't be having a fun time dying over and over and waiting for the game to load over and over again, I am not much of a fan of fighting a boss with one hit point left to fight with myself. In a way you're correct but well that is my point. ::)
sure you can cheat that is if the game has cheat codes to begin with. But, some games you need a code breaker in order to cheat on some games
WWF No Mercy for the Nintendo 64 is just one example of a video game that has no cheats without use of a game genie or emulator on the PC
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It’s a video game. If save states make it more enjoyable for you, save on. It’s about having fun.
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Imo it does what retro technology was at times too simplistic to do on every game, which is give proper save points. Modern games you get a good checkpoint every 1/8th of a level or so. So saving right before the boss to do it over and over again isn't cheating but rather fixing the game imo lol.
It makes it a lot easier of course, but easier in a good way. Like others have said, it only matters in competitive sense. Games are made to be fun. It's still going to be just as hard to beat the enemies. Just less backtracking and beating what you already beat. :)
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Imo it does what retro technology was at times too simplistic to do on every game, which is give proper save points. Modern games you get a good checkpoint every 1/8th of a level or so. So saving right before the boss to do it over and over again isn't cheating but rather fixing the game imo lol.
It makes it a lot easier of course, but easier in a good way. Like others have said, it only matters in competitive sense. Games are made to be fun. It's still going to be just as hard to beat the enemies. Just less backtracking and beating what you already beat. :)
they could have easily done save points in older games
The thing is the content is short. How to increase gameplay time you ask?
Make a game difficult limited lifes restarts from the very beginning of the lvl or from the very start of the game.
Games that take 30 minutes with save states could take days to complete since you won't get enough practice in for later fights.
The reason why modern games have nice save points is because people can put allot more content on discs these days. Super high difficulties and cheap resets not needed anymore
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Just to clear my name I never said save states were cheating. I do it all the time when possible. but save states cannot save you on some of the games with limited continues or limited lives
Example If I start with 3 lives and lose 1 without cheats I only have 2 left. I could save midway through the game, I can load it as many times as I want. But I still only have 2 left. I still need to play the rest of the game, and if I lose another life midway through I could save again but only have 1 life left to play the rest of the game.
Therefore saving midway through a game with limited continues or lives don't help much so saving still won't help you much faster through a game if you suck at it. ;)
save states do help on games like most Doom or Duke Nukem 3D where you have unlimited lives and can save as much as your want and when you want without having to start the game over from the beginning
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Just to clear my name I never said save states were cheating. I do it all the time when possible. but save states cannot save you on some of the games with limited continues or limited lives
Example If I start with 3 lives and lose 1 without cheats I only have 2 left. I could save midway through the game, I can load it as many times as I want. But I still only have 2 left. I still need to play the rest of the game, and if I lose another life midway through I could save again but only have 1 life left to play the rest of the game.
Therefore saving midway through a game with limited continues or lives don't help much so saving still won't help you much faster through a game if you suck at it. ;)
save states do help on games like most Doom or Duke Nukem 3D where you have unlimited lives and can save as much as your want and when you want without having to start the game over from the beginning
I disagree
example
say you play castlevania and there are 10 lvl's and each having a boss
Say you die at the 5th boss withouth save states. this means you have to start from the very beginning lvl 1. with save states you can get practice in so you can learn patterns and progress through the game
withouth save states you barely get any practice in for the 5th boss and you will die multiple times starting the games many times over before you get past that lvl
huge time difference
also what about a game over screen at the final boss. you have to start from the very beginning withouth save states not to mention almost no practice at the final boss
for speed runners save states are essential to practice certain hard parts in a game. it would be way to time consuming to start from scratch otherwise. practice makes perfect and save states happen to drop you off at every spot in a game you so desire.
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yes I see your point now
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Since I don't have any free time for me right now this is the best option, in the past save states didn't existed, don't gonna deny that I used passwords (at Metal Storm) but there are not the same as save states that allow you to continue from some specific point/part of the game without having to start from the beginning of the level, anyway there were some abusive passwords that gave you some benefits like starting with all the weapons at the start of the game (Mega Man X) never used them and at this moment won't believe that the latest games gave you this option anymore.