VGCollect Forum
General and Gaming => General => Topic started by: burningdoom on October 10, 2017, 12:58:26 pm
-
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/5jFU1bDJZfA/maxresdefault.jpg)
http://theknow.roosterteeth.com/episode/game-news-2017-gamers-don-t-deserve-transparency
Is gamer culture too toxic?
I think the answer is twofold here:
First of all, yes, we are. Those of us that are active in the online gaming community have seen this time and time again. Gamers getting pissed at each because one likes PlayStation and the other is a Nintendo fan. Or because they feel entitled to a game that has changes made to it they don't like. And they just go off.
HOWEVER: I feel this is more due to the internet and social networks in general. All hobbies (also a BIG movie collector and comic collector) have had an influx of this kind of attitude as social media has proliferated. So I don't think it's just gaming that has this problem. But I do feel it's something we as fans could work on, nonetheless.
At the same time. If gaming wants to be considered equal in media and considered the same as movies and music (which they have expressed over and over again), then they need to accept that this kind of criticism, and even fanboyism, that comes with the territory. Movies and music are ridiculed and criticized on a regular basis.
What do you think about a toxic gaming culture?
-
I feel like the toxicity of the gaming community is more of a granular thing rather than being super general and all encompassing. I feel like some of the worst communities within gaming are for online focused games. Personally some of the worst I have dealt with are the Souls games fanbase, Smash Bros competitive scene, and Halo 2. Some that I've heard are even worse are LoL, COD, DOTA, and CS GO, mostly because many of the people that play those games are younger and immature.
I've experienced some toxicity in the collecting community as well, but this seems to be exclusive to certain online collecting forums or facebook pages. Really slimy shit like posting fake ads on CL, convincing people a bunch of NES games are only worth like a buck each when they were way more valuable, and people getting into pissing matches over their pickups to the point of personally attacking each other are just a few examples of this that I've seen.
As you said, every hobby has those people that ruin the hobby for everyone, but some communities are festering wounds that should have been managed better long ago.
-
.
-
I think it certainly can be. The worst parts of gaming culture I've seen (IMO) have been:
- immature/abusive behavior with certain gaming communities (as bikingjahuty mentioned)
- entitled attitudes from consumers to developers
- all sorts of random conspiracy theories that just foster more negativity
In general, I just get tired of all the negativity when, in the end, games are ultimately about having fun and enjoying oneself. "If you don't like something, move on" is something I like to remind myself of if I feel myself getting heated over something, but I know that's not applicable all the time.
Death threats over a dad-dating simulator is not a good way to expend ones energy, in my opinion.
-
I think it's not just with gaming, i'm a doll/toy collector too and i've seen a lot of things similar to what I experience in the gaming community (people hating each other for liking a rival brand, having something rare...)
-
My position is a bit more nihilistic I suppose. In my view, social media in general is the all encompassing gateway to toxicity of every form. Because people are generally that way, ideas and attitudes begin to spread and multiply across the platforms and become a force of their own. Have you noticed that all of society has seemingly turned into a never-ending witch hunt? Yeah, I blame that largely on social media like Facebook and Twitter. Ever noticed that most gamers/collectors/reviewers seem to have the same exact opinions about every game, whether it's good or bad? I blame that on YouTube.
There's something about social media that's too hyper-social, I guess. It's not having an all-positive effect on people, and quite frankly I think there's a certain danger to it.
-
Wanted to add to my original post:
While I do agree gamer culture can be toxic, and fans should work on it; a specific example I don't agree with.
In the video I posted they point out that when Microsoft originally planned for the XBox One to have to be online all they time, that they go unnecessary negative feedback...no, that feedback was necessary. That particular time was a valid complaint from consumers. Plenty of people's internet go out, or they just have crappy internet to begin with due to their location.
Gamers needs to identify when it's okay to get angry about something, and how to channel that anger constructively. (However there will always be the shit-stirrers.)
-
Given that you could draw a line from a a bad breakup of a female game dev - one whom people were already harassing because she was making a game about depression - through to a new rise of white supremacy, I think I have to give this an unqualified "most definitely.
Developers being harassed off of social media and out of the industry by "gamers". Swatting. The normalization of racist and sexist language. And so on.
It's not like it was ever really that great, looking back. But it's become so much worse. And so few people stand up to it in the gaming community.
-
Death threats over a dad-dating simulator is not a good way to expend ones energy, in my opinion.
I had to go read up on this, the only thing I could find was that a fan artist was receiving death threats because he rule 63'd the dads. Not even specifically the fact that he rule 63'd the characters, but that he rule 63'd a trans character. That somehow a character is off limits to fan art/fiction because it's a trans character. I even read some comments of folks suggesting that the rule 63'd character could still be trans and the responses were basically that nobody should be doing fan art on trans characters at all, that these characters are somehow completely off limits entirely.
I was honestly expecting the issue to be the usual "cis white males" threatening people because the game is pro-homosexuality and such. But I'm only reading about folks being offended by fan art.
-
https://kotaku.com/game-designer-says-developers-would-be-more-candid-if-g-1818729507
Its all so true. People just want to bitch about everything, in part to not knowing anything about development. Fans are devs worst enemies.
-
https://kotaku.com/game-designer-says-developers-would-be-more-candid-if-g-1818729507
I know for sure that a lot of devs cut features and ideas because they know that it'll cause a commotion on the internets.
I'm sure it's a good part of why we get censored games and games like DoA don't come stateside anymore.
Such a shame that so many consumers are getting their information from clickbait generating gaming news websites and idiotic youtube personalities.
-
Death threats over a dad-dating simulator is not a good way to expend ones energy, in my opinion.
I had to go read up on this, the only thing I could find was that a fan artist was receiving death threats because he rule 63'd the dads. Not even specifically the fact that he rule 63'd the characters, but that he rule 63'd a trans character. That somehow a character is off limits to fan art/fiction because it's a trans character. I even read some comments of folks suggesting that the rule 63'd character could still be trans and the responses were basically that nobody should be doing fan art on trans characters at all, that these characters are somehow completely off limits entirely.
I was honestly expecting the issue to be the usual "cis white males" threatening people because the game is pro-homosexuality and such. But I'm only reading about folks being offended by fan art.
Ah, yes, that was another issue that had come out of that game. Initially there were death threats after the dev had to delay the launch of the game due to the discovery of some game-breaking issues. People were upset, suggested boycotts, death threats, etc... unfortunately par for the course when an announcement has to be made about a game delay or whatnot. Even game journalists aren't spared the death threats just for *reporting* on delays... :-[
-
Yeah there's a lot of problems right now in the gaming community, particularly due to social media, but of course it's in the games as brought up with the online community in multiplayer. There are things to be properly outraged about, like bad business practices, and sleezy developers, and other legit things, but too often we see people getting mad over the most petty and unnecessary bullshit. So yes, it's very toxic. I've turned on voice chat ONCE in Playerunknown's Battlegrounds, because I know I'm gonna hear some nasty garbage from people who are just miserable asshats. I never turn voice on in any game, but text chat can still be a thing in some games.
It's unfortunate and while there is pushback to try and fix it, there's simply a whole lot of jerks out there. It's not purely just gaming that has this issue, but gaming is a little more unique due to it's interactive aspect.
-
Given that you could draw a line from a a bad breakup of a female game dev - one whom people were already harassing because she was making a game about depression - through to a new rise of white supremacy, I think I have to give this an unqualified "most definitely.
Developers being harassed off of social media and out of the industry by "gamers". Swatting. The normalization of racist and sexist language. And so on.
Ok, I can't let this slide. You can't seriously buy into this moral panic 'gamers are white supremacist sexist!' crap. It's a big issue how buzzwords like these are used by political extremes to scare moderates into more extreme positions on both sides, but what's relevant is the trickle down to gaming here. You are obviously - obviously - on one of those extremes by your Poe's Law post, the one that currently is very censorship-happy. This recent attack on gaming is business as usual - scapegoat problems to encourage censorship. In the past it was the other side, but now it's yours.
While swatting is terrible, it's a handful of sociopaths, not 'gamers'. Yes, developers are harassed - remember when the creator of The Last Night was for having the wrong ideas? Yes, normalization of racist/sexist language - #KallAllWhiteMen, Manveer Heir, etc.? The point I am trying to make here is you seem to be assigning a giant group diverse in all color, creed, walks of like into a strawman it's easy to push all blame onto. The incidents I mentioned where by individuals who I strongly disagree with, but I am not going to push off as some dismiss-able label that writes off everyone under it's banner.
What I care about is gaming, and without freedom from this kind of collectivism it can only stagnate. Is gamer culture too toxic? I think I have to give this an unqualified "no". Are individuals within it Toxic? Absolutely, but to think the make up some majority is ludicrous. This is not even mentioning the proclivity of this generation to think looking at someone funny is an unforgivable offense. Doxxing, harassing, swatting... stuff like this should be condemned and punished as it's awful, but if someone calls you a swear word get over it and ignore them.
I'd also really recommend you actually read more than a Kotaku article about your first sentence...
-
The thing that irks me is "lazy dev." Bitch, you don't know what goes on in the office day to day. Some of use are working 70 hour weeks.
But really, unless you've been in a studio what gives someone the right to declare if a developer is "lazy."
-
I don't see the big deal. Why do they take notice? They're selling a product, people have a right to speak freely if it's harsh or not as feedback. (That said you can't please everyone and you will always have "that guy".)
They should just get on with it and make the product and stop the melodrama. And the really extreme ones; these guys don't leave the basement, let alone walk more than 5 minutes without running out of breath. So I think Hitman at conservative guess, would be unlikely in their case.
I don't have any hard facts, but I'd theorise at a total guess, people are complaining more about games these days because it's hard to be original, most people have already experienced the drug and ain't getting their kick as much anymore as it was in the past. The bar has been set to high and it's climbing, and they're clamouring around the developers like zombies for something "fresh".
-
I don't see the big deal. Why do they take notice? They're selling a product, people have a right to speak freely if it's harsh or not as feedback. (That said you can't please everyone and you will always have "that guy".)
They should just get on with it and make the product and stop the melodrama. And the really extreme ones; these guys don't leave the basement, let alone walk more than 5 minutes without running out of breath. So I think Hitman at conservative guess, would be unlikely in their case.
I don't have any hard facts, but I'd theorise at a total guess, people are complaining more about games these days because it's hard to be original, most people have already experienced the drug and ain't getting their kick as much anymore as it was in the past. The bar has been set to high and it's climbing, and they're clamouring around the developers like zombies for something "fresh".
-
Ok, I can't let this slide. You can't seriously buy into this moral panic 'gamers are white supremacist sexist!' crap.
I'm probably going to regret even replying to this, but I will anyway.
I'm not making any blanket statement about all gamers being racist, sexist, white supremacist, or whatever. It's a large and diverse community. And any large community and subculture is going to have problematic elements to it. You can't define a community by the extremes.
But you CAN make conclusions based on the scale and severity of problematic issues, on what the community in general is willing to tolerate, and what it doesn't. And the event in question, while it still encompassed a minority of the gaming community, was still quite large in scale - and was triggered by things that represent bigger issues underneath.
For the record, no, I didn't learn about it from reading a Kotaku article, but by being present for the whole thing. That includes multiple times watching my Twitter replies get flooded for hours by and endless stream for simply including a single word in a tweet. And from watching friends of mine undergo much worse than that - such as lies being deliberately spread far and wide, having employers contacted, or ridiculous conspiracy theories about who was secretly paying them. (As far as the comment about drawing a line from the gaming community event in question through to the rise of white supremacy, I will simply mention that there's a key individual that was recently featured in an in-depth Buzzfeed article. And yes, in-depth Buzzfeed articles does seem to be an oxymoron, but there it is.)
Games, like any form of media, can not only tolerate criticism and critique, but deserve such things, as it makes them better. That critique can address the whole gamut, from technical issues, business practices, or quality concerns, to analysis of the stories being told and the characters represented in them. To try and claim such critiques are inappropriate - or even worse, to harass and threaten those who make them because of disagreement with the critiques - is a level of toxicity that undermines the entire community and form of media. Critique is not censorship. And it is up to game developers and publishers to determine how they wish to take such critiques.
I feel the gaming community is still a community very much divided - which is probably appropriate, given the political state of the US now, and many areas of the world. I hope someday things can change, and concerns can be listened to and respected. That maybe we can reach a point where all of us can enjoy games together.
-
I have to agree with those who often say - to each their own. If someone wants to criticize a developer's story telling, or their creative vision for seeming uni-dimensional, or "problematic", that's fine. But, I don't think anyone is under the obligation to compromise their own creative freedom in making their own product, just to appease a segment of critics, especially critics who reject the game based on a certain brand of politics. Anyone who actively wants to make the kind of games that would appease said critics, should be responsible for making that happen. Not the folks who are off doing their own thing, making products of their own creation that many people subsequently enjoy and are probably attached to at some point.
I've long ago suspected nepotism, bias, and outright fraud behind much of video games journalism, and at this point couldn't give a rat's behind what they think about any game. I don't need someone who's paid to think for me, because opinions about video games are just opinions.
-
Gaming culture would be less toxic without 99% of the Internet, """"""professional"""""" game """""journalists""""", and feelings of privilege.
There will always be a few assholes who try to ruin the culture for anyone and everyone. As a gamer, you need to have the foresight to avoid them. And, if you make contact with them, then do an about-face and ignore them. Granted, there are times when it's fun to troll the trolls. e.e
Seriously, though. I love gaming too much to let the toxicity (of the ciiiiity) get to me.
-
I have no issue with folks voicing their disdain for delays, poor game design, and even their own personal/political issues with games... but the thing that makes it toxic is that these people feel that an injustice is happening and that it is up to them to seek justice. They harass these people online and in person, find and release private information, contact employers, etc.
I have no issue with someone saying "[Game title] is [some offense] and I will not buy it, because blah blah blah". I have an issue with "[Game title] is [some offense], and if you release it, we will terrorize you until you back down". Same goes to the people who just immediately respond to any statement as "I will hope you die", "get raped", or whatever horrible things these folks say.
And "games journalism" doesn't help either. Every article's headline is essentially click bait, meant to twist the words of whomever they are quoting. "Games journalism" is the epitome of everything wrong with modern journalism. Half the time when I hear about some "outrage" about something in games, I can't actually find the original outrage, all I can actually find is an originating article, with no true source, making up the outrage. And most of the responses to this outrage are just people arguing about the article, nothing in specific, or everyone being outraged by the "outrage".
-
Some replies are saying that people have a right to complain, that's completely true. But complaining and personally attacking people and making threats is not the same as complaining.
People saying that a game is unidimensional or a repeat of ideas already used ad naseum is a complaint, I completely agree that's okay. It's when people completely rage out over a game and start getting scary angry, that seems bad. Some people are TOO attached to their gaming.
-
Some replies are saying that people have a right to complain, that's completely true. But complaining and personally attacking people and making threats is not the same as complaining.
People saying that a game is unidimensional or a repeat of ideas already used ad naseum is a complaint, I completely agree that's okay. It's when people completely rage out over a game and start getting scary angry, that seems bad. Some people are TOO attached to their gaming.
I can agree with that. In several cases, it seems to have gone something like.... reviewer says something over-the-top about said game, makes blanket assumption/generalization designed to make fans of said game feel like crap. Overly sensitives fans of the game respond with name-calling, threats of violence and smear campaigns. Critics feel their views of target audience are confirmed, launches blanket smear campaign against gamers - Takes it all the way to the UN.
Something like that.
-
Nah, most communities are just as toxic. People just like to point out video games because it's relatively new and the competitive nature helps to highlight the toxicity. Hobbies I've experienced toxicity in:
Writing/authoring
Doll collecting
Cosplay
Anime
Tabletop games
Art
Music
I think you get the idea. There are some terrible people in every hobby. Just ignore them and move on.
-
Nah, most communities are just as toxic. People just like to point out video games because it's relatively new and the competitive nature helps to highlight the toxicity. Hobbies I've experienced toxicity in:
Writing/authoring
Doll collecting
Cosplay
Anime
Tabletop games
Art
Music
I think you get the idea. There are some terrible people in every hobby. Just ignore them and move on.
Pretty much sums it up.
-
There are bad apples in every online community, sure, I touched on that in my initial post. But with gaming communities (Vgcollect not included), it seems snarky, a-holish behavior is the norm and even encouraged. The fact that Vgcollect isn't like that makes this a great community.
-
.
-
The fact that Vgcollect isn't like that makes this a great community.
Hear hear! This positive environment needs to be protected from all the BS that plagues everything else. Unfortunately as long as political and religious topics are allowed to be discussed this will lead the opposite direction and end up like NintendoAge or worse. Toxicity is a direct result of these aforementioned subjects among a few others. I like it here and I really don't want to see this turn out like the others... I don't need that in my life.
This is probably the most harmonious large forum I've ever belonged to. Kudos to the site admins for keeping this an oasis among many flaming troll dens.
-
Online Game are in the toxic zone. but single player games, I don't really know so. It is better to rage at a computer then an actual person. People simply don't care online, they can say just about anything and before the person can get banned, it's too late the hurt or anger probably 9/10 has been done. I've even seen footage of top paid video game champions curse at the losing aspect of some kind of prize tournament. I pretty sure we all seen or at least heard some kid screaming at another more experienced or cheating player on YouTube or not. I have
Like the 1 admin said games are for enjoyment. In fact I never hooked some microphone and headset online I never will because I am already a paranoid person, But occasionally I laugh like this one time, On an online doom PC game I typed in "We killed the cow, lets eat" I was referring to the dead demon and the darn game was coop anyway and someone said FU fully spelled, I mean come on
-
The fact that Vgcollect isn't like that makes this a great community.
Hear hear! This positive environment needs to be protected from all the BS that plagues everything else. Unfortunately as long as political and religious topics are allowed to be discussed this will lead the opposite direction and end up like NintendoAge or worse. Toxicity is a direct result of these aforementioned subjects among a few others. I like it here and I really don't want to see this turn out like the others... I don't need that in my life.
This is probably the most harmonious large forum I've ever belonged to. Kudos to the site admins for keeping this an oasis among many flaming troll dens.
I second and third this statement I am glad to be in a safe controlled community
-
This is probably the most harmonious large forum I've ever belonged to. Kudos to the site admins for keeping this an oasis among many flaming troll dens.
I agree 100%. It helps remind me that the majority of the folks that I know that share this hobby with me are actually good people.
-
My thoughts are that every community has toxic individuals. That will of course spill over into the community itself. From the outside it can appear that this makes up the community as a whole, especially since social media and the media in general seem to want to highlight only this behavior.
I believe that a lot of the divide between gamers and developers at the moment can attributed to hype culture. No Man's Sky is a shining example of this. Promised to the moon, upon delivery it made a lot of people angry. You are free to criticize aspects of a game. It's an entertainment industry after all and you cannot please all the people all the time. I also believe DLC culture has a lot to do with it. I can't really attribute blame to a dev here but I sure can to a publisher that dissects a game to sell in chunks to the consumer.
It also has to do with a certain "pop culture critic" was being fetishized by the media. I'm sorry but labels like, sexist, misogynist, racist, homophobic get attributed to gamers as a blanket to demean the entire community. All because somebody bought and enjoyed a game with scantly clad women and some really bad jiggle physics. It's entertainment, fiction, taking up arms and shouting that exposure to these fictional worlds will turn your kids into any of the aforementioned is a vapid and baseless accusation.
The entitlement has a lot to do with the former. They beat a drum to make games more inclusive, your game, your way. A game for everybody is really a game for nobody. Due to varied tastes of gamers as I said before, you can't please all the people all the time.
I would also like to say that a lot of the problem in and of itself coming from people who don't even play games or rarely do. Professional outrage machines that see, scenes, dialogue, and what not and immediately take offence and start problems for everybody.
It's toxic on many levels. The thing we have to understand is that gamers just want to be left alone to play their games. We don't care if who or what that person is that we play with. When you take any community and endlessly batter them with degrading remarks and baseless accusations, you're going to get push back.
-
My thoughts are that every community has toxic individuals. That will of course spill over into the community itself. From the outside it can appear that this makes up the community as a whole, especially since social media and the media in general seem to want to highlight only this behavior.
This echos my own thought pretty closely. Every group of any type of people can have toxic members. However, because the gaming community is, by nature, very technologically inclined the toxicity of several subgroups (LoL players, just as an example) becomes highly visible. These aren't grandmothers bad-laughing Sheila down the street in a sewing circle. The group itself was created by, and exists on, a platform that automatically amplify their voices. I saw someone mention the toxic Souls community. I have run into maybe one griefer the entire time I've played Souls (probably around 400 hours), so they are out there, but by virtue of being online their griefing/ "toxicity" automatically becomes more prolific.
-
If the question was "Is gamer culture toxic", I would say yes to extent.
However since it is "Is gamer culture too toxic", I will say no.
There are undeniably lots of bad people in the community, from people can't tolerate someone else playing on a different platform, from calling devs who pour their heart and soul into making games lazy, to swatting people online. But overall I'd say it's fine, I'm sure there are many other communities that are far worse. It's not too hard to have a friendly chat or a civil discussion, not to mention the beautiful thing about single player gaming is that you have the option to shut yourself out from all the rubbish that goes on.
-
As an Xbox fan I have to say yes emphatically. From my earliest times with the Xbox in 2001 through to today I have always gotten shit from others just for liking the console. I can't even go on PS+ without some loser flinging shit my way just because they know I like the Xbox.
I'm lucky that most of the PS4 games I want to play are single player because the toxic community has driven me off PSN.
-
As an Xbox fan I have to say yes emphatically. From my earliest times with the Xbox in 2001 through to today I have always gotten shit from others just for liking the console. I can't even go on PS+ without some loser flinging shit my way just because they know I like the Xbox.
I'm lucky that most of the PS4 games I want to play are single player because the toxic community has driven me off PSN.
Need a good example of toxicity in games? Play online on Xbox or Playstation. Then, you can find out how many 12 year olds have been sleeping with your mom.
I don't play online anymore. It was fun back in the day; but then every loud mouthed, vulgur, racist, douche canoe in North America got on XBL. Now, it's all single player.
-
As an Xbox fan I have to say yes emphatically. From my earliest times with the Xbox in 2001 through to today I have always gotten shit from others just for liking the console. I can't even go on PS+ without some loser flinging shit my way just because they know I like the Xbox.
I'm lucky that most of the PS4 games I want to play are single player because the toxic community has driven me off PSN.
Need a good example of toxicity in games? Play online on Xbox or Playstation. Then, you can find out how many 12 year olds have been sleeping with your mom.
I don't play online anymore. It was fun back in the day; but then every loud mouthed, vulgur, racist, douche canoe in North America got on XBL. Now, it's all single player.
Word. I played with folks I knew IRL for a while, but now I don't really keep in contact with ANYONE, so 1P 4 lyfe.