VGCollect Forum
General and Gaming => Classic Video Games => Topic started by: seether on May 16, 2018, 06:20:56 pm
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With more moving parts and lasers and memory cards and such do you think say a PS2 would still even be operational in 30 years time?
Is cartridge collecting safer? At least with cartridges there's modern purpose built systems for it i.e. the Retrons etc. so you don't have to rely on a 1985 NES to run the games necessarily.
Do you think dreamcasts and the like have a limited life and will die with age in our lifetime?
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Well yeah, that is going to happen to all of them, eventually. But what are you going to do? Not own one just because that's going to happen down the road sometime? Clothes wear out, cars break down, houses need repaired; it's no different.
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Well yeah, that is going to happen to all of them, eventually. But what are you going to do? Not own one just because that's going to happen down the road sometime? Clothes wear out, cars break down, houses need repaired; it's no different.
I'm just saying man, a world where I can't play Fallout: Brotherhood Of Steel on an original PS2 isn't one I want to live in.
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Yeah, it's an unfortunate eventuality. Replacing optical pickups, capacitors and most other on-board components is easy if there is a supply. When a chip goes, then what? Not many if any clone chips on the market. Cartridge systems are also susceptible to this, they just take longer. There is no "safe collecting" I'm afraid.
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Plenty of replacement parts not to mention future alternative consoles with more easy plug ins to modern and old tv's some even replicating the original.
For carts there are already pricy ways and discs options are coming wich play many cd based consoles at ones and decrease the loading times of neo geo cd's
I'm not to worried about retro systems not working anymore original/ brand new replacements part or alternative brand new consoles will be plentyfull in the upcoming 3- 5 years I'd say.
Not to mention do you know how cheap ps2 or ps1 systems are ::)
Might be some worries with them sega cd based consoles but brand new cd consoles will come wich would make those reliable options or better certain mods right now in wich you do not even need to use the laser to play games on a dreamcast thus making the console very durable since not so long lasting laser was it's main problem.
The modding and technical scene are pretty busy these days I'm not to worried to be fair even for original hardware. And people worrying about ps1 and ps2 consoles are just being cheap, These consoles are very cheap to replace and I highly doubt they will increase in value especially with new cd consoles on the rise.
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And people worrying about ps1 and ps2 consoles are just being cheap, These consoles are very cheap to replace and I highly doubt they will increase in value especially with new cd consoles on the rise.
It's not the worry that a ps1 or ps2 may break, it's the worry that all ps1s and ps2s will be non-functional given a decade or two.
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By the time we get to that point, the patents will have expired, allowing other companies to make newer, more reliable consoles with modern technology. We already have that with SNES and earlier.
Also, there's backwards compatibility with some systems. I don't need a working OG Xbox when my games play just fine on my One.
And then, of course, there's always emulation, both of the legal and illegal varieties.
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Clones are an option for sure. As we've seen though those aren't quite perfect, even flash carts aren't 100%. Since clones use modern streamlined tech to basically emulate the older chips and custom configurations. You'll never iron out all the kinks in some units. Disc based would be more reliable since most of those all use the same delivery method. All you have to worry about is the emulation of the main unit without the interference of custom chips thrown into the mix.
As far as part availability goes, basic surface mount and through hole components will be plentiful. Optical pickups for the more popular systems should be easy to snag as well, chips will be a different story. So third party clone systems will be very popular as will first party plug and plays.
Time will tell, hopefully it goes well.
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By the time we get to that point, the patents will have expired, allowing other companies to make newer, more reliable consoles with modern technology. We already have that with SNES and earlier.
Also, there's backwards compatibility with some systems. I don't need a working OG Xbox when my games play just fine on my One.
And then, of course, there's always emulation, both of the legal and illegal varieties.
emporerdragon said it in my opinion. I think PC's and Laptops will at least have some sort of ROM database to download from or some kind of central computer. And depending on if the video game companies are still in business or not. might depend on whether you can download the game for free :)
There are a few PC game fan sites as an example will let you download newer and updated versions of old games for free, but unfortunately in my experience a lot of those sites contain malware >:(
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Turbo Duo and Sega CD were some of the earliest CD based consoles, and many of them still work fine despite questionable build quality. They can be repaired too when they break down.
I'd love to see a new specialized console made someday that plays old CD games, particularly with the ability to up-res older 3D polygon games.
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Nah, I'm not worried.
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And people worrying about ps1 and ps2 consoles are just being cheap, These consoles are very cheap to replace and I highly doubt they will increase in value especially with new cd consoles on the rise.
It's not the worry that a ps1 or ps2 may break, it's the worry that all ps1s and ps2s will be non-functional given a decade or two.
Considering the number of old DOS-type early CD computers that do still function, I don't think that the whole line is going to die quite that soon.
While I certainly worry about it a little more with my CD-based consoles, I try not to worry too much about system death. The more time goes on, the more ways people find to fix to replace these old machines. We've already seen an attempt or two at a CD-based retron-style machine (even if they haven't amounted to anything yet.) CD consoles lend themselves well to such a format, seeing as the media itself is uniform in shape/read function- as long as the right programming is in there to read the discs, it doesn't really matter what system it was originally meant for. Plus, the ubiquitous nature of the CD format means lots of replacement parts for the optical drives themselves- so the uniquely game console killing issues are about on par with their cartridge based predecessors.
I'm honestly a bit more worried about the discs themselves dying before the machines that play them do. After all, we're already seeing disc rot become an issue for older CD machines, and unlike chips, there's no salvaging parts from other dying discs to fix that.
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I am not worried because I will just figure out how to fix those devices instead. Already I have started down that path with a CD player I have that I need to fix. It requires me to get a multimeter, but my understanding of how cds work has already gone up.
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@zenimus, and everyone here really, the Polymega appears to want to be the first to really do this well. I'm sure a lot on this forum are pretty excited for it.
To the OP, I do worry about this. I try to use wear dispersion on my machines. It's easy with Nintendo because of backwards compatibility: Gamecube on Wii, Wii on Wii U. This way I'm not putting too much stress on any one console and in some cases improving the fidelity. I'm getting a Wii U soon, as I worry a good bit about my launch Wii breaking down. So for PS2, for example, you might consider picking up one or more PS2 slims on the cheap and rotating them occasionally. You could get multiple versions to justify adding them to your collection (color variations, slim, phat, special editions) and rotate them.
But, as others have said, spare parts and a bit of elbow grease (and some basic soldering skills) will get you pretty far in this hobby.
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And people worrying about ps1 and ps2 consoles are just being cheap, These consoles are very cheap to replace and I highly doubt they will increase in value especially with new cd consoles on the rise.
It's not the worry that a ps1 or ps2 may break, it's the worry that all ps1s and ps2s will be non-functional given a decade or two.
I know there are already projects similar to retron 5 but for discs in development (I have a friend who is developing on in his spare time) so this will make this a moot point in a few years/half a decade. the biggest obstacles a lot of them will face is just the legality side of things.
as for the discs themselves so long as they are stored properly 90+% of all discs will still work in 100 years. the reason for that is they are a metallic foil covered in small holes that are completely sealed from the corrosive environment by the bottom plastic and the top colored disc label. some were built with imperfections inside of them from a contaminated production line and will eventually cause disc rot but the chances of that are so astronomically low that out of my entire collection and all games I have ever bought and sold I have only ever come across 1 instance of disc rot.
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I do agree about the discs, disc rot quite a rarity and if it happens it is mostly with pretty bad condition discs.
I have only seen a few cases of disc rot with pretty bad condition discs to be fair.
Than again I guess since many people also pick up pretty bad condition discs when they are cheap than yes you will find some but those discs were not treated well to begin with so not a fair comparison.
If a very nice looking disc has disc rot it has probably been stored very poorly wich again since discs are durable even than it will not happen to fast. Disc rot is Not an easy find really I don't worry about that to much. I'm pretty sure even the older discs will last for quite a long time 100 years It's pretty possible.
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From what I've read, early CD pressings weren't as high-quality because the process wasn't as refined yet. And a lot of the early years of CDs are more prone to disc rot.
But that was the mid-to-late 80s. By the time disc-based consoles came around, the process was pretty well developed.
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Nothing to worry about, it's gonna happen, but it's not a particularly huge issue. Won't stop people collecting, but likely the only way to play stuff will be through digital means or if people make new systems that can play them. No real reason to worry about it at this point though.
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For what it's worth, I have two CDs from 88 and 89 that still play just fine. But that's just an n of 2 haha
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I'm just hoping I die before these games do. That way my kid has to fool with all this stuff if it's trash! ;D
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I wouldn't worry about the physical on these things. People are getting really good at repairing a lot of things that were thought of as sealed and essentially disposable at the time of manufacture. There are literally millions of most of these systems so even original parts will be around for a long time.
I would be more worried about the next generation where people think the disc contains the game but it is just a stub to download the game from what will be a non-existent service or is 100% reliant on a network server and lacks even the most rudimentary AI so even if you do fool it into thinking the service is there you would essentially be the only moving object in a digital wasteland.
That is going to be the real issue for fans of current generation games. Even digital is less of a concern, bits can be copied and DRM defeated, but a missing back end requires monumental effort to overcome.
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i turn to piracy and emulation...
no way in hell i am buying my RPGs again that i have for PS2... they are in $60s+ some are in $100s and $200s+
heck especially Kuon haunting grounds and rule of rose. = HELL NO.
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Nah, I'm not worried.
Seconded.
If we're going to worry about CD based consoles going bad, we'd better worry about disc rot, too. Which is a thing, sure, but just not all that pervasive at this point. Also, humans die after some years. At that point it's very difficult to care.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
There's no firm, predictable number of years as you're suggesting. I have nearly 40 TG-CD/PCE-CD games that have survived 25 years and not a single one has signs of becoming degraded. The quality of manufacturing and the way the disc has been handled are two factors that you have to consider.
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I have plenty of VHS that are older than me, and I'm 35. That 25 year shelf life sped up is not accurate.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
There's no firm, predictable number of years as you're suggesting. I have nearly 40 TG-CD/PCE-CD games that have survived 25 years and not a single one has signs of becoming degraded. The quality of manufacturing and the way the disc has been handled are two factors that you have to consider.
scoobs22, anecdotal evidence means nothing you know? 25 years passing doesn't mean the suddenly break, it means the risk starts to climb from this point onwards.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
There's no firm, predictable number of years as you're suggesting. I have nearly 40 TG-CD/PCE-CD games that have survived 25 years and not a single one has signs of becoming degraded. The quality of manufacturing and the way the disc has been handled are two factors that you have to consider.
scoobs22, anecdotal evidence means nothing you know? 25 years passing doesn't mean the suddenly break, it means the risk starts to climb from this point onwards.
Yes, I understand that. I also understand that when media manufacturers put a lifespan on their products, they don't really know if it's accurate, and they err on the side of caution to cover themselves. When it comes to how discs are holding up, I guess my collection is all I care about, and my collection is fine.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
There's no firm, predictable number of years as you're suggesting. I have nearly 40 TG-CD/PCE-CD games that have survived 25 years and not a single one has signs of becoming degraded. The quality of manufacturing and the way the disc has been handled are two factors that you have to consider.
scoobs22, anecdotal evidence means nothing you know? 25 years passing doesn't mean the suddenly break, it means the risk starts to climb from this point onwards.
Yes, I understand that. I also understand that when media manufacturers put a lifespan on their products, they don't really know if it's accurate, and they err on the side of caution to cover themselves. When it comes to how discs are holding up, I guess my collection is all I care about, and my collection is fine.
Worth bumping this thread in the future then. The PCE-CD is a regarded as a high risk with it's discs in particular. Dracula x has a lot of dead discs from disc rot.
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That's cool, I look forward to your petty "I told you so."
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That's cool, I look forward to your petty "I told you so."
Don't worry there's millions of those PCE-CD games in circulation it'll be awhile before it affects your anecdotal 5 disc collection.
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That's cool, I look forward to your petty "I told you so."
Don't worry there's millions of those PCE-CD games in circulation it'll be awhile before it affects your anecdotal 5 disc collection.
Lol I'm glad I don't take forum posts personally like you do. Seems a miserable way to live.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
And what's the hard evidence that it's 25 years? It seems to me like your evidence is just as anecdotal
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
And what's the hard evidence that it's 25 years? It seems to me like your evidence is just as anecdotal
Recordable optical media have a life span of 15-30 years (estimated) due to the fact that organic dyes are used to make them writable. Pressed optical media has the estimated life span of 200 years.
For magnetic tape, there is a bit of confusion on the subject. Most magnetic tape lifespan information uses the period of 10-20 years, but this value comes from a study regarding using tape to store data, and it was recommended to verify and overwrite the data every 10-20 years to verify storage. This is not a lifecycle statement at all. As it should be obvious that magnetic tape from 40-50 years ago is still usable today.
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Well and I think the issue with the statement that "Disc life is that 25 years" (or x years for that matter), is that it implies that all discs have a hard, definitive lifespan of that time. Which as scoobs mentioned, isn't the case.
If you said "25 years give or take depending on how it's stored and used" that would be a more accurate statement. But it seems like according to trip it stretches well beyond 25 anyway.
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That's cool, I look forward to your petty "I told you so."
Don't worry there's millions of those PCE-CD games in circulation it'll be awhile before it affects your anecdotal 5 disc collection.
Lol I'm glad I don't take forum posts personally like you do. Seems a miserable way to live.
Lol strange it sure looks like you do? What's with the angry messages and what's it got to do with what I said? Maybe stay on point?
"Seems a miserable way to live." I think your projecting about yourself buddy.
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Well and I think the issue with the statement that "Disc life is that 25 years" (or x years for that matter), is that it implies that all discs have a hard, definitive lifespan of that time. Which as scoobs mentioned, isn't the case.
If you said "25 years give or take depending on how it's stored and used" that would be a more accurate statement. But it seems like according to trip it stretches well beyond 25 anyway.
I didn't mean it has spontaneous combustion the day it turns 25 years of age. Who the hell knows how long the erosion period would last, it could easily take another 25 years. Adding the anecdotal of I own 5 discs that are older than 25 years doesn't add much or mean anything. In fact it could easily be eroding without showing obvious signs.
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Disc life is 25 years before it starts eroding. If you want to see what the process looks like speeded up, look at VHS tapes.
There's no firm, predictable number of years as you're suggesting. I have nearly 40 TG-CD/PCE-CD games that have survived 25 years and not a single one has signs of becoming degraded. The quality of manufacturing and the way the disc has been handled are two factors that you have to consider.
scoobs22, anecdotal evidence means nothing you know? 25 years passing doesn't mean the suddenly break, it means the risk starts to climb from this point onwards.
Yes, I understand that. I also understand that when media manufacturers put a lifespan on their products, they don't really know if it's accurate, and they err on the side of caution to cover themselves. When it comes to how discs are holding up, I guess my collection is all I care about, and my collection is fine.
Worth bumping this thread in the future then. The PCE-CD is a regarded as a high risk with it's discs in particular. Dracula x has a lot of dead discs from disc rot.
I have rarely seen disc rot discussed on any forums etc as far as dead discs go from disc rot let alone of a paticular game such as rondo of blood for the pc engine cd. It is an earlier cd based system so on paper it should have a higher risk than newer cd based systems nothing else.
in general I have not seen many people complain about disc rot and if they have in many cases the discs were abused not the greatest shape found at a flea market garage sale etc etc, it is out there for sure but It's never very clear how the discs were kept not to mention the scale of disc rot on even the older sega based cd games it's pretty rare atm.
I'm very curious where you got this info from as far as the many supposedly dead discs of rondo of blood by disc rot.
and while older cd based games have a higher chance of disc rot these are still game discs they were made allot sturdier than normal discs wich have an even higher chance of disc rot since game discs were products that would have been expected to be used/ replayed allot not to mention by kids.
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I didn't mean it has spontaneous combustion the day it turns 25 years of age. Who the hell knows how long the erosion period would last, it could easily take another 25 years. Adding the anecdotal of I own 5 discs that are older than 25 years doesn't add much or mean anything. In fact it could easily be eroding without showing obvious signs.
That's pretty much exaxtly the claim you made though, which is why I brought it up. And it's why scoobs called you out on it too.
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That's cool, I look forward to your petty "I told you so."
Don't worry there's millions of those PCE-CD games in circulation it'll be awhile before it affects your anecdotal 5 disc collection.
Lol I'm glad I don't take forum posts personally like you do. Seems a miserable way to live.
Lol strange it sure looks like you do? What's with the angry messages and what's it got to do with what I said? Maybe stay on point?
"Seems a miserable way to live." I think your projecting about yourself buddy.
I think it's all there for anyone to read. You accused me of using anecdotal evidence (which I absolutely did), then insulted my collection after I said that none of the discs are degrading, then used your own anecdotal evidence (Castlevania). Like a truly miserable person who's just looking for a fight. I'm finished with you.
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I think somebody out there will make a device to play the disc based games on. I never bought the Turbo Grafx CD player back in the day, but could play the discs on my PC (Magic Engine I think).
I personally haven't encountered any disc games in my collection that don't work anymore. I'm starting to come across DVD's and Blu Rays in my collection that don't work though. They look brand new. No finger prints, scratches or scuffs. Lady in the Water and Crank were the latest 2 DVD's I found that froze on the same spot on every player I used. First Blood part II Blu Ray was garbage, brand new out of the wrapper. Over a year or so went by before I decided to open it unfortunately.
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All I hope is that my systems outlive me. I'm not particularly worried, but if they die, hopefully they can be repaired. If not then, well, I had my good times with them or find another that works. I don't want to press my luck but my SNES/N64/PS1/PS2/GCN all work flawlessly like the day I got them so I am not overly concerned.
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"Well, as long as my collection outlives me."
Thiiiis just in, scientists have found a reliable way to achieve a longer life span with the help of this new...
"Fudge."
Call me crazy, but that's what I'm worried about, unironically.
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There are alot of similarities to fans of video game fans to that of the auto industry as well. By that I mean as long as we are here ( the fans ) the games will be here too. Just like restoring an old sports car or refusing to let the old family conversion van to rust away we too will preserve the tech. I think very far off, like generations away, the game will exists in a new habitat. I cant help but reflect on the talking rings from H.G. Wells The Time Machine but I am a bit of a romantic.
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Everything will be irrelevant once we are plugged in the Matrix 8)
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Everything will be irrelevant once we are plugged in the Matrix 8)
How do you know you're aren't already there?
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Everything will be irrelevant once we are plugged in the Matrix 8)
How do you know you're aren't already there?
*GASP*
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Everything will be irrelevant once we are plugged in the Matrix 8)
How do you know you're aren't already there?
*GASP*
Pretty interesting
That being said though Pretty hard to test if your real mind will be going into the matrix
I mean for all I know it could just be copy of ones mind while your actual body with you actual mind and soul will be dead after going into the matrix. Meaning your actual mind will not experience the matrix going to heaven hell or it will just turn black since dead is a mystery after all.
While to other people it seems like you have entered the matrix with your real mind, in reality your dead and a copy of your being has entered the matrix. Not to mention that if there was an option to get your mind back into your body after a long period of time your true soul has already left this world while your copied mind entered the body.
It will all be the same to the people you know however the real mind and soul is gone and has already left this world without ever being in the matrix. Would be kinda a scary thing knowing that for others who know you there doesn't seem a chance but for the person who enters the matrix his life will end while a copy will takes over his body like nothing ever happened.
I really wonder how this will work if people could enter virtual reality with their mind thus leaving their bodies considering your mind turns into a digital code.
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There will always be Pros and they will always figure out how to fix anything, and if they can't, they will just repro it and put 5000 games on it :)