VGCollect Forum
VGCollect Site Stuff => Video Game Database Discussion => Topic started by: tripredacus on August 02, 2018, 11:23:36 am
-
Please read the entire thread before choosing a poll option. Poll will run for 7 days (give or take) and the results will win out and become the rule. Rules in the Style Guide can be voted on again in the future or new ones can be brought. You can submit additional ideas to bring up for voting in this thread:
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.0.html
This poll is specifically to put into the Style Guide what names for games we should actually be using. This is to clarify the "regional release title" as specified in the Style Guide. This will not change any of our existing formatting rules for descriptors, packs, TLDs or transliteration. This is due to the current inference that items in the database need to use the full front title, using blanket conditions created by the practice of putting Disney/Pixar onto titles where they commonly are not used on other websites. This had led to confusion among many as to what names should actually be used on games, as often the name a game is known as does not match what is printed on the cover.
Games using stylized logos that may merge two words into one.
Example: Mega Man X4 uses a logo that has no space, effective cover title is Megaman X4.
https://vgcollect.com/item/6971
Games using a front title that has a full title that is not used in common practice.
Example: .hack//Quarantine has a front title of .hack Part 4: Quarantine: The Final Chapter
https://vgcollect.com/item/22240
https://vgcollect.com/item/1325
Games that have a logo design that does not match the game's actual title:
Example: Resident Evil 4 has a stylized logo as 4 Resident Evil
https://vgcollect.com/item/1065
Games that have extra text in titles that are used for copyright or advertising purposes.
Example: The Last Airbender to avoice confusion with other Avatar (but not James Cameron Avatar) title is
M. Night Shyamalan The Last Airbender
https://vgcollect.com/item/29485
This also applies to games that have the company logo on or near the title, including Disney or Dreamworks or whoever else.
The example list can go on forever.
Current Style Guide:
Game Titles:
Use the item's regional release title, written in the language written on the case, but in the Latin alphabet (the letters we commonly use). If the title is in Japanese, use the most recognized transliteration.
- Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King (NA)
- Dragon Quest VIII: The Journey of the Cursed King (EU)
- Dragon Quest VIII: Sora to Umi to Daichi to Norowareshi Himegimi (JP)
*Option 1 in the poll would enforce the rule that all video game titles would use the full title as represented on the front of the box or case. You can see examples of this in the previous examples above the quote box.
**Option 2 in the poll would enforce common names with exceptions. Common names will be referenced to other sources of reference. This would also eliminate "colon gate" situations... hopefully...
Exceptions would need to be added for certain titles such as these examples:
- Resident Evil VII: English logo clearly has the roman numeral VII in the name and does not use the number 7. Game is known on most websites as Resident Evil 7. Example:
https://vgcollect.com/item/133930
- Mega Man Legacy Collection + Mega Man Legacy Collection 2 is usually referred to online as Mega Man Legacy Collection 1+2.
https://vgcollect.com/item/143739
- .hack//Quarantine is referred to online as .hack//Quarantine Part 4. This is an error as it is Part 4 of the .hack// series not Part 4 of the Quarantine series. So Part 4 would be omitted in our title.
Other examples. Games with studio marks in titles would not be required, with the exception that there would be two games with the same title. Disney typically gets to refer to their movies as Disney's Whatever because they often make movies based on properties in the public domain. Disney did not make Aladdin, as anyone can make an Aladdin movie, cartoon, video game, but Disney's Aladdin is their own thing with unique blah blah blah.
Disney, Disney/Pixar, Dreamworks, M Night Shamalamabingbong, etc would not be required in item titles. Author possessives would be, such as James Cameron's Avatar or Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six.
Marketing descriptors for game titles would not be required. These are used by the rights holder to eliminate confusion when they release video games based on other properties (such as movies) that are selling in the same region at the same time. Again, the only exception of this would be if we had two different games in the same category with the same name, so one would need to be "The Game" if it does says so on the packaging. Otherwise, the year or publisher descriptor should be used.
Example:
Iron Man not Iron Man: The Game
James Cameron's Avatar not James Cameron's Avatar: The Game
These particular errors in titles from other websites, as well as full front titles (in addition to spine, cart or in-game menu titles) should be put into alt-name and not be on the main item title.
If you have any recommendations for other game title sources, feel free to post them. We specifically would need sources for specific platforms not already covered.
-
i prefer the title written on the front cover simply for the fact that if you were to buy the game and try and enter it you only have to write the title. but there are plenty of games that have different titles on the cart/disc than on the cover of the box which will make it slightly difficult for people to add game only additions.
One thing that i do not like about the box art though is that then you have games like Aladdin becoming Disney's Aladdin or something like Madden NFL 2004 becoming EA Sports: Madden NFL 2004 or whatever it would be. but i still believe it to be the better option.
-
While I think both options are fine and won't change most of the games in the database anyway, the issue is the remaining 20% (or whatever it is), and that's where the imperfections of both systems start to show.
i prefer the title written on the front cover simply for the fact that if you were to buy the game and try and enter it you only have to write the title. but there are plenty of games that have different titles on the cart/disc than on the cover of the box which will make it slightly difficult for people to add game only additions.
Going with the title as it shows on the case actually strays more away from that than towards it. You mentioned the Disney/Pixar stuff which is very relevant, but if someone is entering Resident Evil 4 into the database, even though they know the game is called that, it will not show up like that. It will be 4 Resident Evil. The search function as it stands should be able to handle most of these, but I can guarantee that some games will get shunted down the list of search results because they'll become so much more different than what their being entered as by users.
In my opinion the problem with going with the box title only is that it trades off database functionality and appearance for item consistensy, and that's it. While going by the box title sounds good on paper, it becomes maladaptive when it directly changes game titles that are clearly supposed to be a certain name. I'm reminded of that old video MJR did of the site where he couldn't even find games to add because of the restricted search options. I'm worried the database will seem off to new users in that same capacity, and that's a far bigger priority in my opinion.
-
Waiting to see Call of Duty: Black Ops IIII 8)
-
.
-
Waiting to see Call of Duty: Black Ops IIII 8)
:o :'( 8)
-
I would use common names backed by trusted sources, with exceptions. The reasoning being the same with what telly said earlier.
I really like Resident Evil VII over Resident Evil 7 though. I'm a sucker for roman numerals.
-
Technically, Resident Evil 7 would be written as Resident Evil: Biohazard or Resident EVIIL/EVIL: Biohazard.
-
Also, after all these years of owning the .hack series, I never knew how messed up the titles were. :-[
-
Cover actually says .hack Part 4: Quarantine: The Final Chapter. Technically the "Part #" is between .hack and the subtitle. dot hack if you want to include the fact that the '.' has "dot" written inside of it.
-
Cover actually says .hack Part 4: Quarantine: The Final Chapter. Technically the "Part #" is between .hack and the subtitle. dot hack if you want to include the fact that the '.' has "dot" written inside of it.
Oh right, I forgot US box art has the word "dot" written in the logo as opposed to the Japanese title. :D
-
99% of the time I order games on my shelves by the name as it is on the box and it's convenient for me personally to have the games on my shelves and the games in my VGCollect in the same order. But that's just me.
-
99% of the time I order games on my shelves by the name as it is on the box and it's convenient for me personally to have the games on my shelves and the games in my VGCollect in the same order. But that's just me.
Yes, I like to be able to audit my collection that way, too, in case I missed a new addition!
-
Shouldn't this really vary on a case by case basis? Are you really going to call it DRX Mario?
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/5864.jpg)
If that's the case I'd like to change my vote because I figured at first the title should be what's on the spine, not the front cover. In retrospect I think I'd rather see the common name by trusted sources.
Or just keep it with the way it is now, a hodgepodge of the two. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
Is there a way to change my vote? :-\
-
I'm not going to mess with trip's poll, but he can edit it to allow for user edits of their choice. Hopefully he'll do that for you :)
-
Shouldn't this really vary on a case by case basis? Are you really going to call it DRX Mario?
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/5864.jpg)
If that's the case I'd like to change my vote because I figured at first the title should be what's on the spine, not the front cover. In retrospect I think I'd rather see the common name by trusted sources.
Or just keep it with the way it is now, a hodgepodge of the two. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
Is there a way to change my vote? :-\
Using full title names, that game would be Dr Mario
Using common names, that game would be Dr Mario
We would not make it into Rx (actually ℞, aka Prescription Take) in either case, same as we don't put Open Center Black Star ( ✫ ) into Gal Gun, or the Underscore ( _ ) into Watch Dogs or the Commercial At ( @ ) into Idolmaster.
Vote changing has been enabled. Whether or not this resets the poll timelimit is to be seen, the forum doesn't say...
-
Vote changing has been enabled. Whether or not this resets the poll timelimit is to be seen, the forum doesn't say...
Voting closes: August 09, 2018, 11:23:36 am
-
Ok then it didn't change it when I edited the poll.
-
Even if it doesn't change Dr. Mario it will change other games in a similar fasion haha
-
Besides .hack, also "kerning" issues such as the Mega Man example, or the Mega Man X3 would use the superscript or be X Cubed for the releases that have a logo like that.
And to remember, this is for the database as it exists right now. Maybe some day in the future we will have multiple fields for names and the ability to choose which one we see when we log into the site. That would make this vote meaningless. It is a big deal for us right now because we only have 1 field to put in the name.
It also has nothing to do with your personal preferences for how you arrange games in your own collection wherever you keep it. There should be some separation between VGC and real life. I don't use either of these methods to sort my own stuff, I do what everyone else does. I use the spine title. I don't run my house like a database or regulated like a library system.
-
I don't run my house like a database or regulated like a library system.
I try to because when I inventory, it's much easier if it's ordered the same as VGC.
-
Just throwing it out here, what if 2 'trusted' sources use different names?
I would stay with the box, but be sensible about it. Dont overthink things what often happens when discussing it on fora.
-
Shouldn't this really vary on a case by case basis? Are you really going to call it DRX Mario?
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/5864.jpg)
If that's the case I'd like to change my vote because I figured at first the title should be what's on the spine, not the front cover. In retrospect I think I'd rather see the common name by trusted sources.
Or just keep it with the way it is now, a hodgepodge of the two. If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
Is there a way to change my vote? :-\
Using full title names, that game would be Dr Mario
Using common names, that game would be Dr Mario
We would not make it into Rx (actually ℞, aka Prescription Take) in either case, same as we don't put Open Center Black Star ( ✫ ) into Gal Gun, or the Underscore ( _ ) into Watch Dogs or the Commercial At ( @ ) into Idolmaster.
Vote changing has been enabled. Whether or not this resets the poll timelimit is to be seen, the forum doesn't say...
Thanks for clearing this up and enabling poll change.
-
As someone who's had trouble finding games on occasion due to spacing or punctuation differences, I'm for option 2- especially since it does specifically state exceptions are allowed, meaning we can tweak titles to be both unique and easily/sensibly searchable.
Having said that, I'd be OK with titles exactly as on the box, provided there's a way to train the search engine to recognize the common names/variants... for example, 'little big planet' & 'LittleBigPlanet' should produce the same results (https://vgcollect.com/item/167) in search (perhaps in a different order, depending on specific titles.)
-
Just throwing it out here, what if 2 'trusted' sources use different names?
I would stay with the box, but be sensible about it. Dont overthink things what often happens when discussing it on fora.
We will need a place to record specific examples, perhaps we can make a thread someplace to put examples. Decided by staff or you guys, and then link to that thread from the Style Guide in the Game Titles section.
But I don't think we would need to go through the entire list to determine a consensus. There would be a heirarchy. We would have a general order, and a specific order. For example, Sega/Sonic Retro should be the priority for Sega games. Anyways, think of it like so (in general) :
If the game is on Mobygames, call it by the name they use. If it is not on Mobygames, then look on Gamefaqs. And go down the list.
However, it isn't to say that people will need to visit all of these sites to look up what to name their games before adding them. As you said, no reason to make it more complicated.
This scenario may not even present itself that often, as we have a large percentage of games already in the DB. It is more likely to come up with people updating existing entries.
-
I changed my vote as well... after mulling it over for a while it makes more sense to be trusted sources than to be EXACTLY as written on the cover.
-
Less than an hour left!
-
I don't recall voting but I'd go with Option 2. Titles on boxes are great but I would prefer consistency where things like all Mega Man entries were spaced like that instead of some being spaced and some being one word. If anything, it'd help cut down on all of those dupe entries that keep popping up every so often.
I used to be a stickler for the Disney and DreamWorks games having the name in the title but I've switched my outlook on that and when I submit new entries on games from those companies, I'll put the "Disney" or "Nickelodeon" as part of the alt-name. Again, it's to cut down on dupe entries and the information is still represented (and though there's always talk of adding fields, I'm not holding my breath anytime soon :P).
-
So.. Where do we go from here? :o
-
So.. Where do we go from here? :o
Everybody does his own thing again, and Trip is gonna fix it as it should be ;D
-
Rule update is in effect.
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,22.msg155.html
"commonly accepted regional release title"
The sources list is there also, and a new post with the 3 current exceptions. If you want to submit specific sources to add to the trusted sites list, or any other exceptions we should be looking at, post them into this thread.
If there is anything else you think we should tackle in the future, post into the Poll Ideas thread in Site Feedback.
-
Rule update is in effect.
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,22.msg155.html
"commonly accepted regional release title"
The sources list is there also, and a new post with the 3 current exceptions. If you want to submit specific sources to add to the trusted sites list, or any other exceptions we should be looking at, post them into this thread.
If there is anything else you think we should tackle in the future, post into the Poll Ideas thread in Site Feedback.
Thank you, Tripredacus!
-
Relative bump.
In the advanced style guide, I had originally written a part up about Roman Numerals, however it was not something that was ever official and I didn't want to make it official just because. It was another one of those unwritten rules we really shouldn't have. Which was: physical games with roman numerals in the logo get roman numerals in the title, but digital games do not.
Another thing that made me think of this was a recent interview of some guy talking about how the new Resident Evil game, despite having a VIII in the logo, doesn't have VIII or 8 in the title.
So this roman numeral text from the new guide has been removed, and I will let you guys decide on whether we should vote on having a roman numeral common name exception.
Numbers and Roman Numerals
Item Name should use the numbering format as it exists on the packaging. If a common name uses a number but the packaging uses a roman numeral, the name using the number goes into Alt-Name.
Example: Call of Duty: Black Ops 4
The title as shown on the packaging: Call of Duty: Black Ops IIII (this is the item name)
The title as seen within the game, on digital platforms or on other websites: Call of Duty: Black Ops 4 (this is the Alt-Name)
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/145270.jpg)
-
I personally think it's fine to have the roman numerals common rule as we've had it. So RE VII, Black Ops IIII, and RDR II have the roman numerals even though their common name has Arabic numerals
-
Pardon my bluntness, but this name/title thing is so stupid. Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that? Whatever other variant name(s) the game have/has should go under the "alt-name" field. Why over-complicate things?
For the example above, use the title "Call of Duty IIII" and "Call of Duty 4" in the alt field. For Japanese games, or from any other region, really, that tend to have more than one name in their title, then use the name the game is most commonly known for, obviously. Pokémon games for instance, while called the same in Japan, are titled "ポケットモンスター", which translates to "Pocket Monsters", so, name the entry "Pocket Monsters" and add "ポケットモンスター" and "Pokémon" and any other variant in the alt field. Seriously, why the hell over-complicate this?
-
Pardon my bluntness, but this name/title thing is so stupid. Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that? Whatever other variant name(s) the game have/has should go under the "alt-name" field. Why over-complicate things?
Because it's not that simple. The title that's "provided" by the game on the cover or the spine is almost always stylized in some way. Honoring that stylization leads to many problems with several games and franchises. We weren't being consistent with the "if it says it on the box, that's how it's gotta be named". It appears easy for BLOPSIIII vs BLOPS4, but it gets extremely complicated when we apply a "blanket rule" like this to other titles.
I'll quote my original post when we were having this discussion because it's not in this thread.
- Placement of numbers or words on the title often don't match up with the actual title
Every release of this game becomes 4 Resident Evil
https://vgcollect.com/search/Resident%20evil%204
Every release of this game becomes Super 3 Mario Bros.
https://vgcollect.com/search/Super%20mario%20bros%203
- Stylization of words causes issues with colon placement
This game becomes Metroid: Prime: Hunters: First Hunt
www.vgcollect.com/item/11130
This game becomes Donkey Kong: Country: Tropical: Freeze
www.vgcollect.com/item/45607
This game becomes Star Wars: Knights: Of the old Republic II: Sith Lords
www.vgcollect.com/item/197
- Games with other games or companies listed on the box all have to be included in the title
This game becomes Steamworld Heist Steamworld Collection Steamworld Dig: A Fistful of Dirt
www.vgcollect.com/item/111283
This game becomes Pac-Man Pole Position Dig Dug Galaga Namco Museum
www.vgcollect.com/item/815
This game becomes Killer 7 Capcom Killer 7
www.vgcollect.com/item/106615
- Game titles with spaces or no spaces will be either squished together or separated
This game becomes Trans Formers: Prime
www.vgcollect.com/item/49584
This game becomes Digimonstory: Cybersleuth
www.vgcollect.com/item/90977
This game becomes Metalgearrising: Revengeance
www.vgcollect.com/item/16792
Trust me, we decided to use a common name source in order to simplify things.
-
For Japanese games, or from any other region, really, that tend to have more than one name in their title, then use the name the game is most commonly known for, obviously. Pokémon games for instance, while called the same in Japan, are titled "ポケットモンスター", which translates to "Pocket Monsters", so, name the entry "Pocket Monsters" and add "ポケットモンスター" and "Pokémon" and any other variant in the alt field. Seriously, why the hell over-complicate this?
The issue here is that newer Japanese Pokémon games have both Pokémon AND ポケットモンスター on the box. So you tell me which one is the more "common" name :P It's not that easy to determine.
https://vgcollect.com/item/33769 -> In this example, you can see different people changing the name back and forth between the two.
In the past, it was decided that when a box has both the name in English it's Japanese equivalent, English takes priority because this is primarily an English-language database. Again, I'll quote the post that I made, specifically highlighting the first line. These rules that we decided on were overwritten when we accepted the common name rule, which is what Tripredacus and I were discussing above.
Any part of the game’s title that is English or has any characters of the Latin alphabet must be included in the title that is entered into the database.
Any part the game’s title that is in katakana must be written as its English translation. For reference, writing in katakana uses more simplified, angular strokes, and is used for words that are meant to be in the English language but are difficult for Japanese speakers to say. It’s usually used for pronouns or very specific names or brands.
Any remaining portion of the title in kanji or hiragana that is not already represented by another form above must be romanized using the most recognized transliteration. Hiragana and kanji are typically used for native Japanese words, and usually are what makes up a game's subtitle. Kanji in particular features complex and compacted symbols, and can sometimes represent a whole word rather than sounds.
-
Pardon my bluntness, but this name/title thing is so stupid. Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that?
It is evident that most websites do not use the name on the thing itself, which was what caused this issue for us.
Besides what was already posted, the reason is because when we did have a "soft" rule for game titles that were: use the name on the box, users would pick and choose when to apply that naming convention. There was a general agreement in the forums that people wanted to use this naming convention, so I did what I did and went and renamed a bunch of stuff like that. I think the deal breaker was changing the .hack games to their front titles. So then we first had a discussion, then we created a poll to let the community decide how we were naming things. You see what won, and more importantly, that went into the style guide.
-
Because it's not that simple. The title that's "provided" by the game on the cover or the spine is almost always stylized in some way. Honoring that stylization leads to many problems with several games and franchises. We weren't being consistent with the "if it says it on the box, that's how it's gotta be named". It appears easy for BLOPSIIII vs BLOPS4, but it gets extremely complicated when we apply a "blanket rule" like this to other titles.
Well, I mean, obviously not if we go by that train of thought. I know it's the Internet, and I know most people on it lack common sense, but common sense would tell me, "hey, don't use Chu♥lip, use Chulip instead", or "it shouldn't be THE iDOLM@STER, so let's go with The Idolmaster" or "let's take the star glyph off Black★Rock Shooter" and so on. The rule should be that, while the name provided on the cover/spine can be used, it shouldn't be a literal transcription, expounding that the name must be in title case and any and all special characters must be ommited, but that the original title can be freely added to the alt-name field. Other rules could be implemented to ellaborate on certain naming conventions, like names with Disney or Marvel on the title, for example.
Trust me, we decided to use a common name source in order to simplify things.
Again, I know we're on the Internet, but it doesn't mean things have to be dumbed-down. There's no science behind this, just common sense.
The issue here is that newer Japanese Pokémon games have both Pokémon AND ポケットモンスター on the box. So you tell me which one is the more "common" name :P It's not that easy to determine.
While Pokémon is used frequently over there—you can certainly hear this during interviews with Masuda and others where they will usually say "Pokémon"—the franchise is known there mostly as "Pocket Monsters/ポケットモンスター". However, it's worth noting that you do see merchandise using "ポケモン" (Pokémon), and it has been going on for quite a while now, but "ポケットモンスター" is always present.
In the past, it was decided that when a box has both the name in English it's Japanese equivalent, English takes priority because this is primarily an English-language database. Again, I'll quote the post that I made, specifically highlighting the first line. These rules that we decided on were overwritten when we accepted the common name rule, which is what Tripredacus and I were discussing above.
I'm not necessarily opposed to that, so long as the original title is always included in the alt-name field. Which by the way, said field should be improved so that titles with more than one alt have them below each other, not side by side divided by a slash.
It is evident that most websites do not use the name on the thing itself, which was what caused this issue for us.
That wording sounds trite, if I'm being honest. When most people search for a game, they go by the title present on the cover. Wasn't there someone that posted once because he couldn't find a game by the way he was typing it or something close to it? I seem to recall something like that happening once, but I'm not going to look around in a sea of over 170,000+ posts.
-
Well, I mean, obviously not if we go by that train of thought. I know it's the Internet, and I know most people on it lack common sense, but common sense would tell me, "hey, don't use Chu♥lip, use Chulip instead", or "it shouldn't be THE iDOLM@STER, so let's go with The Idolmaster" or "let's take the star glyph off Black★Rock Shooter" and so on. The rule should be that, while the name provided on the cover/spine can be used, it shouldn't be a literal transcription, expounding that the name must be in title case and any and all special characters must be ommited, but that the original title can be freely added to the alt-name field. Other rules could be implemented to ellaborate on certain naming conventions, like names with Disney or Marvel on the title, for example.
We already have a blanket statement on using symbols in names. However, I would argue that what may seem apparent to you really isn't what someone else may see. For example, I was putting the @ in Idolmaster for a long time on the DB. That's how I honestly thought it should be written.
But look at the examples I quoted in that post below; the symbols are only one very small piece of it. I'll pull a couple examples out with more detail.
- What about words getting squished and separated? Here's an example that actually happened. All the Mega Man games past the SNES X games were being squished together to "MegaMan" at one point because that's what the box shows.
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/6971.jpg)
But if we follow that rule we have to change other names too, which end up being clearly incorrect. The box says "Trans Formers Prime" but "common sense" says it should be "Transformers: Prime". So do we just make an exception to the rule here?
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/49584.jpg)
- What about placement of numbers? Another real-world example: Mega Man X3 was changed to Mega Man X³ at one point because again, that's what the box shows.
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/9569.jpg)
But again, if we follow that rule with other games with numbers, we end up with titles that aren't right. Here, the box clearly says "4 Resident Evil" but "common sense" says it should be "Resident Evil 4". So do we just make an exception to the rule here?
(https://vgcollect.com/images/front-box-art/1065.jpg)
If we accept these small innocuous changes of Mega Man to MegaMan or X3 to X³, because "that's what's one the box", we also have to change those other games to something that's clearly wrong. OR we make special exceptions for every single one of those "common sense" examples, and our rules would not be any less confusing or cumbersome to navigate; in fact it would be way, way worse. Because there are many, many more examples, particularly with colon placement in the title, which isn't even shown on a game's box.
Just saying "use what's printed on the box" sounds catchy and easy at a cursory glance. But it is in fact a far worse ideology to follow. You either butcher the database or create an exception list a mile long to prevent said butchery and completely undermine the whole idea of using what's on the box in the process.
Again, I know we're on the Internet, but it doesn't mean things have to be dumbed-down. There's no science behind this, just common sense.
Our system now is this: unsure what the game's title should be? Look it up on gamefaqs or mobygames, and use that. Far easier and still accomplishes the same "common sense ideology" than if we built it ourselves from the ground up. With BLOPS4/IIII, we're just deciding if we want to do our own thing with regards to roman numerals on boxes while most websites use arabic numerals. But we don't have to, it's up to us.
-
Truthfully, the Pokemon vs. Pocket Monsters doesn't really bother me. Either is fine. I was more upset because it went against those old guidelines that we established, and Tripredacus reminded me that those guidelines don't apply anymore because we as a community decided to go with a different method.
-
If the rule regarding symbols was already in place, why were you adding the ampersand, then?
Regarding your examples, I think it's quite obvious those are stylistic choices, especially with the X³. Most everyone in the world knows it's "Transformers", just one word, and it has been established by now that it's "Mega Man", two words. I mean, who in their right, conscious mind would think the fourth entry in the series is called "4 Resident Evil"? Sure, maybe a first timer to the series, but even then, I'm certain they'll figure it out.
Overall, you either didn't read my whole post or you're taking it quite literally - not EVERYTHING that's on the cover would be allowed. As I stated, "it shouldn't be a literal transcription" of what's on the cover. A perfect example would be "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' Quackers" - you'd certainly wouldn't change the name to "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' "Qu@c!<e*r!s"", right? It goes without saying that was an obvious stylistic choice. Which again, was the case with the examples you gave, especially Mega Man X3; the ³ would fall under special symbols, so the name for the entry will obviously be "Mega Man X3". I mean, I may sound like a broken record, but whether you like it or not, it's common sense. The alt-name field could house "Mega Man X³" for the sake of "staying true" to what's on the cover. An exception list that's a mile long isn't needed with a set of rules that properly detail how to accurately go about doing this, which the Style Guide already covers for the most part, so...
My original post was merely trying to convey that the cover can also be used the same way GameFAQs is, just make a section in the Style Guide that clearly expresses that it can't be a literal transcript of what's on it and properly detail the specifics of what's not allowed when using a cover as the source for naming an entry. I don't think it's rocket science.
-
This is such a strange argument we're having, or seeming to have. It is strange because pzeke, telly and myself are all on the same side.... aka I didn't vote for using common names when the poll was active. I feel the same way as before, that data should be represented precisely.
There was even an entry where Telly tried to rename it and it was against the style guide so I had rejected it. Then I sent him a PM to point out the stupid name that was on GameFAQs.
The difference now is that the community had a discussion and got to decide which method we use.
So there isn't a differing of opinion here. We get what you're saying, but also that we just aren't doing it that way anymore.
I will say that now since the rule has been in effect, it is a good thing. It certainly has made things easier, just look on a site and see what the name is. Especially on the admin side when people try to change item names with edits.
I've posted it before, I had always wanted for there to be multiple name fields that could be used. So that we could have options for common name, but also full title on cover, title on spine, etc. And then have an option for the users to decide which titles they see when viewing collection. It might not be the best option, but having a system like that would pretty much take care of all of that.
Most of the reason we have a Style Guide in the first place is to help us manage data with limited options. There is only 1 name field, so we need to specify what you are supposed to put in there. It is better than how it was before when there were edit wars on item names, changing them back and forth.
EDIT: wanted to quote this
you'd certainly wouldn't change the name to "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' "Qu@c!<e*r!s"", right?
Before the common name vote, there were releases of this game that had this as their title. ;D
-
If the rule regarding symbols was already in place, why were you adding the ampersand, then?
Because I was making those edits before that rule was put in place. ;) Not sure when that happened though, Tripredacus might know.
Overall, you either didn't read my whole post or you're taking it quite literally - not EVERYTHING that's on the cover would be allowed. As I stated, "it shouldn't be a literal transcription" of what's on the cover. A perfect example would be "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' Quackers" - you'd certainly wouldn't change the name to "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' "Qu@c!<e*r!s"", right? It goes without saying that was an obvious stylistic choice. Which again, was the case with the examples you gave, especially Mega Man X3; the ³ would fall under special symbols, so the name for the entry will obviously be "Mega Man X3". I mean, I may sound like a broken record, but whether you like it or not, it's common sense. The alt-name field could house "Mega Man X³" for the sake of "staying true" to what's on the cover. An exception list that's a mile long isn't needed with a set of rules that properly detail how to accurately go about doing this, which the Style Guide already covers for the most part, so...
The reason why I provided those examples originally was to argue that the "Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that?" statement you made in your original post is flawed and just doesn't pan out in practice. And now the goalposts have now been shifted to instead it's "use the name on the cover, but detail the specifics of what's not allowed when using a cover as the source for naming an entry". So I think I've made my point there. But your statement below I still take issue with.
My original post was merely trying to convey that the cover can also be used the same way GameFAQs is, just make a section in the Style Guide that clearly expresses that it can't be a literal transcript of what's on it and properly detail the specifics of what's not allowed when using a cover as the source for naming an entry. I don't think it's rocket science.
But you really can't though. You can log on to GameFaqs and look at a game's page and it will immediately tell you what the title is. Because it's already provided. If you take a game's cover, you have to make your own value judgment on what stylization of the title is or isn't valid. Even if I grant you all the "obvious stuff" like 4 Resident Evil, you still have to deal with colon placement, capitalization, word placement, subtitles, and possessives. Here's an example of each one of them.
Word Spacing: Is it Mega Man or Megaman? We have people who put in both names. And I've had to edit quite a few of them over the years
https://vgcollect.com/search/megaman
Capitalization: Is it littleBigPlanet or littleBIGplanet? We have people who put in both names.
https://vgcollect.com/search/littleBIGplanet
Is it inFamous or inFAMOUS? This game was BOTH names at one point.
https://vgcollect.com/item/11218
Words being in the title or not: Is it .hack//Quarantine or Dot Hack Part 4: Quarantine: The Final Chapter? This game was BOTH names at one point.
https://vgcollect.com/item/1325
Subtitles being in the title or not: Is it Chibi-Robo! or Chibi-Robo! Plug Into Adventure!? This game was BOTH names at one point.
https://vgcollect.com/item/15958
Colons: Is it Pokemon X or Pokemon: X? This game was BOTH names at one point. And remember, games don't have colons on the box. That's 100% reliant on some other process.
https://vgcollect.com/item/48620
Possessives: Is it Disney/Pixar's Finding Nemo or just Finding Nemo? And how come we're not comfortable saying "M Night Shyamalan The Last Airbender" or "Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Legend" but we're okay with saying "Tony Hawk's Pro Skater?" There are so many examples of this.
Is it 007 NightFire or James Bond 007: NightFire? (or maybe it should be Nightfire?? :o) We have people who put in ALL THREE options.
https://vgcollect.com/search/007%3A%20NightFire
These are all REAL common sense examples that the db has been struggling with for years. And there are even others. So why even bother with trying to decipher the name based on the cover with an accompanying conditions list a mile long? If we're just going to rely on some other source of information anyway, we might as well make that information source consistently easy to use, rather than rely on "common sense" which as I've shown, doesn't work, and isn't the same among our userbase. Look at the advanced style guide for naming as it is. There are many, many other issues when it comes to game names such as
•Games with multiple subtitles
•Games with an abbreviation and full title together
•Use of hyphens
•Use of TLD
•Non-latin language names
•Use of the word "The, A or An"
•Non-english latin language games
•Logos as text replacements
•Descriptors for games with multiple cover arts
And so on. And all that information is just as useful to our user base. So to compromise, I think using GameFaqs for the basics covers most of the issues that users will trip up on for 95% of the database with naming. Again, that's what we as a community decided on. And while neither option is perfect, this option is undoubtedly the better, and I stand behind my vote and for bringing this up a couple years back in the first place.
Read the post I made here (https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,8857.msg155761.html#msg155761), and the subsequent two replies, if you want to learn more.
My question for you is this: how is our current system (GameFaqs) better than making our own rules list for everything? I'm a little confused why this is even an argument, because at the end of the day, we both want things to be easier for users.
-
If the rule regarding symbols was already in place, why were you adding the ampersand, then?
The rule regarding symbols wasn't already in place. It was an unwritten rule that (previous) admins have said not to use, but it wasn't in the style guide. So it was put into the Style Guide, but I do not think that it was announced. It may have been done before we decided to open up some decisions to the community.
And you'll see even now that we don't put forth every little thing to a vote, but users have the ability to call for a vote on something by requesting one here: https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.0.html
Also I wanted to mention regarding "common sense" is that we are an international site and we have users from all over the world. What may make sense for you as living in one country may not necessarily be true of someone else in another country. Our struggle is to have rules that make sense for everyone as best we can. Always knowing that there are people that want to be more specific, but you have to realise that those of us like that are in the minority.
-
I'm mentally exhausted at the moment and I really don't wish to go on with this, so let's agree to disagree.