Author Topic: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.  (Read 1815 times)

SilverBow

PRO Supporter

Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« on: June 05, 2017, 03:11:15 pm »
In the interests of continuity (see other listing for these games) and the correct representations of the names as shown on GameFaqs and Wikipedia (the predominant authorities), please change the following names or come up with a good reason for not doing so.

SingStar: Queen [NA] -> SingStar Queen
SingStar: ABBA [NA] -> SingStar ABBA

There are also a load of [EU] SingStar games incorrectly using the colon which I did not touch.

By the way, I am also still occasionally getting rejections for developer/publisher changes even though I never attempted those changes. I thought that issue was fixed.

Also, where is my 15,000+ edits badge... just kidding!  ;)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 03:14:02 pm by SilverBow »

telly

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 04:00:35 pm »
I brought up the issue with colon use in a similar topic with the Elder Scrolls Online games. We never did come up with a conclusion, but the argument has been that the way a game is represented on the box determines if there's a colon or not (which I don't agree with, personally).

https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,7990.msg132244.html#msg132244

I got pretty heated about it, haha  :-[
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 04:07:15 pm by telly »
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SilverBow

PRO Supporter

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 01:40:45 am »
I just rechecked the artwork on several SingStar games, and THERE IS NO COLON in the titles. These edit checkers surely do waste a lot of my time.  :(

tripredacus

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 10:37:11 am »
There is no colon in many titles that have a colon here.

For SingStar, anything after that name is a subtitle, so should have a colon.

Developer/Publisher rejections are likely due to it showing the unchanged thing as a change (its how we see it and yes it is currently a bug and has been reported) and some admins will choose to reject any entry with same information as already on file, some will choose to accept because it is the same. So that is why you are seeing that.

telly

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 10:57:13 am »
I just rechecked the artwork on several SingStar games, and THERE IS NO COLON in the titles. These edit checkers surely do waste a lot of my time.  :(

I meant that the way a game is represented (stylized) on the box determines if it's a subtitle and thus if there's a colon. I can't think of any games that have colons in the title as far as box art is concerned. I know Wii U and 3DS games have it on the spine.

Personally, I'm a little frustrated that this change and style decision was kind of implemented (as far as I know) without any feedback or update for non-admins and these games just started changing in the background. And again, just to re-iterate, we can't just use stylization changes or a simple "catch-all" rule to determine subtitles. We have to use more discretion than "if it's after the name, it's a subtitle" too. We have games that have multiple style changes, and so would have multiple colons to reflect that, which I don't think makes sense or looks accurate/professional.

I brought up a couple examples with how:
"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords" becomes "Star Wars: Knights: Of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords"
https://vgcollect.com/item/197

and "Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze" becomes "Donkey Kong: Country: Tropical: Freeze"
https://vgcollect.com/item/45607
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 10:58:51 am by telly »
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Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 11:00:49 am »
"Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords" becomes "Star Wars: Knights: Of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords"
I don't know, shouldn't it be "Star Wars: Knights: Old Republic II, Of The: Sith Lords, The"?


telly

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 11:07:53 am »
I guess I wish that our naming system was just a little more fluid so it's easy for people to find and add games, making our site just a little more accessible. I had a friend who was trying to add Tomb Raider Legend, and she got really frustrated because she couldn't find the game until she found under Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Legend.

I just worry that experience just gets exacerbated with additional style decisions like this.  :(
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Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 11:10:39 am »
I guess I wish that our naming system was just a little more fluid so it's easy for people to find and add games, making our site just a little more accessible. I had a friend who was trying to add Tomb Raider Legend, and she got really frustrated because she couldn't find the game until she found under Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Legend.

I just worry that experience just gets exacerbated with additional style decisions like this.  :(
I organize my collection by what VGCollect states, so I get frustrated seeing the Mortal Kombat games in order as Mortal Kombat, Mortal Kombat 3, Mortal Kombat II.  Or some Tomb Raider games under Lara Croft and some under Tomb Raider.


telly

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 11:23:26 am »
And if the goal of this site is to be as strict and rigid as possible, there really is no stopping how games can be altered.

Should Resident Evil 4 be called "4 Resident Evil" because every release of the game has the 4 before the rest of the name on the box?

Or how about games with spacing like this, where the title should be "Trans Formers: Prime" instead of "Transformers: Prime"
https://vgcollect.com/item/49584

Or Killer 7 on the GameCube, which becomes "Killer 7 Capcom Killer 7"
https://vgcollect.com/item/106615

Metroid Prime Hunters: First Hunt becomes "Demo: Metroid: Prime: Hunters: First Hunt"
https://vgcollect.com/item/37587

Like, come on! That seems pretty silly to me  :-\ But if our rules have to be absolute and apply to everything, then that's the sacrifice we have to make. And I get so fired up about this because I really don't want us to have stay locked to our naming rules, and I see all these games that would have to be changed, etc.  :-[ I think a little flexibility is fine here.
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tripredacus

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 12:36:43 pm »
Another example
Resident Evil: Code: Veronica X vs Resident Evil Code: Veronica X
IIRC Silverbow tried to do this edit also.

We are not using any of the established or proper library cataloging systems as most do not allow for the use of colons in this way. It would be "worse" as the colon to separate the title and subtitle is only to be used in that one place. A semicolon is to be used afterwards.

such as
- Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II; The Sith Lords
- Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, The Sith Lords

Yet also standard library cataloging allows for formatting titles based on numerous pieces of information. Not only the front cover, the spine, the copyright info or other renditions inside. BUT, that is not what we are doing here as the item title is the full title as shown on the front of the item.

I still stand by my idea to have up to 5 fields for title and the common title used as the primary one on the entry, not "cover title" which is used now.

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 01:19:32 pm »
I guess I wish that our naming system was just a little more fluid so it's easy for people to find and add games, making our site just a little more accessible. I had a friend who was trying to add Tomb Raider Legend, and she got really frustrated because she couldn't find the game until she found under Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Legend.

I'm sorry for your friend, i'm probably behind the frustration of your friend, last year (if i remember correctly) i took the job of adding a lot of those "Lara Croft" after adding a few duplicate in the database since i couldn't find a lot of those games under theirs exact titles (when a name is written on the front cover, back cover and even the spine i consider it to be the title, especially if it's on the spine since it is how i organize my collection). I too was very frustrated when my "duplicates" got all chopped of theirs "Lara Croft" title (without even putting the exact name in the alt. name tab  >:( ), reported as duplicates and of course merged with the others Tomb Raider games (even though some of the titles were different, in French i mean, even the covers and the barcodes were different too... :-\ ).

But i absolutely agree, it wouldn't hurt if the rules were a little more flexible, we already have a few exceptions in the database (like the Kingdom Hearts games without the Disney/Squaresoft in theirs titles) and if we start to use the cover title as the database title for all games it will really become a mess (i take as an exemple one of those Singstar games too, this one shouldn't be called ABBA: Singstar instead ? ???), but please if you ever decide to edit a name like those Tomb Raider games being chopped of theirs "Lara Croft" title, put the exact name in the alt. name tab, for me a colon doesn't really matter since no matter if you search for "Singstar ABBA" or "Singstar: ABBA" you end up with the same results (not in the same order but all the Singstar ABBA are on the top) but when a part of the name is missing in both the actual title and the alt. name research in the database are very frustrating since you have to directly browse the category of the platform and search manually for the game and that, i assure you, is a lot of time wasted.

I still stand by my idea to have up to 5 fields for title and the common title used as the primary one on the entry, not "cover title" which is used now.

Having more field to put the names is a really good idea, a common title for the database, a cover title, a spine title, an alternative title (for games titles in different language), yep i really like that idea.

And one more thing since we are talking about title here, i wanted to ask why don't we use a system like backloggery where it directly doesn't consider articles like "The" or "A" at the beginning of the name instead of putting those articles at the end of the title (like those Zelda, instead of being "Legend of Zelda, The" will be written as "The Legend of Zelda" but the database would still put them with the other "L" titles ), that is just a simple question not a request or anything, i know some people who tried to start theirs collection here but were having trouble because of that (i too had some trouble at the beginning, i made a lot of duplicate because of that :-[).
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 01:31:58 pm by metshael »

SilverBow

PRO Supporter

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 11:28:22 pm »
In the past, I’ve had rejected game title edits that were thoroughly researched by me. This happened even though I went to the ultimate sources, namely the publishers and/or developers. I guess those authorities don’t matter. In the meantime, I’ll stick with GameFaqs (I’m a contributor) and Wikipedia for my own private database. It’s much cleaner.

As for the SingStar titles, approximately 49 don’t have colons and 39 do. I’ll await for some brave soul to start editing and make them all uniform.

telly

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2017, 09:25:17 am »
I think having a title from publishers and developers, one from the cover, and a common name, etc. would be a great idea :) Sounds like a good compromise
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SilverBow

PRO Supporter

Re: Regarding name change corrections that were rejected.
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 01:11:29 pm »
To me the issue is the way the alphabetical sorting occurs when you’re dealing with 1000’s of items. Items aren’t where you would expect them when paging through lists. In my opinion it’s a really messy way of doing things. To remedy this, the sort and search algorithms should ignore all characters other than letters. This is a very common practice on other sites. As a former programmer, I instituted this for a database containing 10,000’s of chemicals.

Also, in my opinion, our collections should be sorted by NAME, PLATFORM (2nd), and then by NOTES (3rd). At present, after the NAME, it seems to be sorted by happenstance. I have a lot of the same games and duplicates on various platforms all in varying conditions (Notes).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 01:25:13 pm by SilverBow »