What games would you consider objectively some of the greatest ever made?

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telly:
LOL Dunning Kruger doesn't apply to whether people can have opinions of something or not you know xD

Warmsignal:

--- Quote from: dreama1 on February 17, 2020, 03:48:31 pm ---Intuition and logic are not the same thing. You can't use intuition to formulate something as if it were objective fact. This is why opinions are said to be like... those things which we all have and never realize that our own stinks."

You can you're doing it right now.

I don't think so. There's only true, or false, as far as I know."

Then you don't know much.

Whether you like it or not, Fortnight is an immensely popular game because many people actually enjoy playing it. That much can actually be used as a significant measurement of something. So, which matters more when it comes to measuring video game greatness? Games which are/were played and enjoyed on a massive scale, or the whims of a handful of armchair art critics spread among various game collecting circles online? What exactly makes them more credible than the masses?"

Yes, the dunning kruger effect doesn't exist. Your grandma's opinion (presuming she hasn't touched a video game) is just as valued and informed a someone on here or an enthusiast who's studied and researched it heavily in his free time.

Some might not enjoy Led Zepplin but most are smart enough to realise on a instinctual level why others would like it or notice the intelligence yet not fully embrace it themselves. It's not the same as comparing Led Zepplin to some drunk homeless guy in the street singing poorly. It's objectively shit.

--- End quote ---

Isaac Brock sounds like a homeless drunk on the streets when he sings most of his songs, but it sounds damn good to my ears and to the ears of many others as well. Who's a better singer, Robert Plant or Isaac Brock? It's all opinion and it actually doesn't matter.

Even if my grandma has never played a game, if she enjoys Fortnite then why shouldn't her opinion lend the game any further credit to it's accessibility and fun factor? Games which are more accessible to a greater number of people do not equate to the game's overall greatness and superiority? Says who, and why? It's all opinion. But one thing that is not opinion, is the the fact that Fortnite is a very popular game relative to the popularity of other games.

telly:
Of course Freddie Mercury is the best at... being himself. ??? Do you mean to say who is the better singer? Of course people can have varying opinions on that.

dreama1:

--- Quote from: telly on February 17, 2020, 03:56:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: dreama1 on February 17, 2020, 11:56:17 am ---But you're saying there's no objective beauty or quality standard/metric with games, but you make an objective statement saying one doesn't exist?

You're right as in much as you can't throw a dart and hit it with a bulls-eye stagnantly. But you can feel and sense its outline instinctively or on a emotional level with some level or shades of objectively to it. You can't feel or touch it like air or catch the wind or describe love, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist? There's still a standard, and someone who is informed or has expertise in the area with others could make a list and get closer to the ideal and preserve it for anyone who wants to study games or get cultured in the best the medium has to offer.

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It's simply you're not using the word correctly. People use the word objective all the time without really knowing what it means. Put in the definition that I just pulled straight out of the dictionary.

Opinions can be [objective]

Opinions can be [not influenced by personal feelings or opinions]

Doesn't make any sense. It's like saying there's such a thing as a married bachelor. Your claim is axiomatically false statement by definition, which IS objective.

You can do, as Warmsignal did, pick something that is objective, like sales of a video game. Because the sales of video games are not influenced by your personal feelings or opinions.

But we're not talking about sales. We're talking about beauty and greatness. These things are intangible. Can you identify what is empirically beautiful for every human being? Can you produce a well-validated reliable measurement of beauty or greatness or love? One that will lead everyone to the same conclusion if they used it? It's total rubbish.

These emotions "exist" as biochemical processes by humans. That's not to say they aren't important. They absolutely do have a neurocognitive foundation, but they are a product of the mechanisms going on in your own body. They don't "exist" in some cosmic ether nether-plane or whatever you think is going on.

I have no idea what you're on about the SJW journalists defining what's a good game and what's not, but I'm not even going to attempt to entertain a response there.

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But we're not talking about sales. We're talking about beauty and greatness. These things are intangible. Can you identify what is empirically beautiful for every human being? Can you produce a well-validated reliable measurement of beauty or greatness or love? One that will lead everyone to the same conclusion if they used it? It's total rubbish."

Are you just going to strawman? Because you're making arguments I never made. I clearly said you can't hit it like a "bulls-eye" target and relay it empirically pinpointed and nailed, as much as looking through a keyhole at a room and not seeing the whole thing but only pixelated/not in focus (but still the objective shape of truth/beauty) It can be formulated closer to what the ideal is and more in focus the more experience someone has, but it's exact nature can't be understood at least not with language but through the abstracts you get something closer to objective truth or what it embodies. But If you wish to be relativistic and subjective about everything as is popular please do.

These emotions "exist" as biochemical processes by humans. That's not to say they aren't important. They absolutely do have a neurocognitive foundation, but they are a product of the mechanisms going on in your own body. They don't "exist" in some cosmic ether nether-plane or whatever you think is going on."

I think many would disagree with you anyway, including Plato and the whole branch of metaphysics. But you can continue to be a relativist or whatever "you think" is going on. Yep whatever.

I have no idea what you're on about the SJW journalists defining what's a good game and what's not"

Of course you don't, nothing is going on, all is well. Good, spare us the npc response.

dreama1:

--- Quote from: telly on February 17, 2020, 04:00:52 pm ---LOL Dunning Kruger doesn't apply to whether people can have opinions of something or not you know xD

--- End quote ---
Yes. You're a prime example.

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