Advanced Style Guide update and feedback thread

[tripredacus]

We apply the Chicago rules to non-english titles, that is what I am saying.

[dhaabi]

We apply the Chicago rules to non-english titles, that is what I am saying.

If that is the case, then the following—I believe—are the correct formats for the three aforementioned titles, since that is how Chicago dictates:
Prince of Persia: Les sable du temps
Baten Kaitos: Les ailes éternelles et l’océan perdu
Crash Bandicoot: La vengeance de Cortex

These formats, of course, could also apply the optional space preceding the colon ( : ).

If I wasn't clear before, what I'm explaining is that there are Chicago rules for English, there are Chicago rules for French, and there are Chicago rules for a wide variety of other non-English languages. Here is the table of contents specifically for Chapter 11 of the Eighteenth Edition of the Chicago Manual which is titled Languages Other than English.

[bobi]

What about this item: https://vgcollect.com/item/193843 (french version of Brain age)?

Here, on the front of the box, a space is unmistakably legible before both the colon and the question mark, which are both part of the title itself, and not separator added following vgcollect’s rules.
Isn’t not putting these in direct contradiction with the rule stating we must use the actual text on the item?

A space is a character as any other else, and the typography a title sports is fully part of the title, in my humble opinion.

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Concerning capitalization for french title, section 11.27 of the Chicago manual, as outlined by dhaabi, is dedicated to the subject:

In general, Chicago recommends sentence-style capitalization (see 8.158), the rule followed by Grevisse, Le bon usage (see 11.6, 11.25).

Follows a list of examples with an exception for the newspaper Le Monde, which has me guess that following this rule, only the first letter of each proposition is capitalized, in addition to proper names (Apollon, Bellac, Goriot and Rougon-Macquart in the list being all first, last or location names).

Hence: « Baten Kaitos: Les ailes éternelles et l’océan perdu »

Alternatively, Chicago also supports the practice such that for titles starting with a definite article, “the article and the first substantive (noun or noun form) and any intervening modifier are capitaziled (e.g., La Grande Illusion).” That does not apply to titles starting with indefinite articles.

Hence: « Baten Kaitos: Les Ailes Éternelles et l’océan perdu »

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But yet again, why fix here what isn’t broken, as it is readily legible on the box, meaning first letter capitalization in the example of Baten Kaitos?
French version of Brain Age, in small caps, clearly follows the same rule, by the way.

[dhaabi]

But yet again, why fix here what isn’t broken

This idea is sort of what I'm trying to present: the majority of members (and perhaps staff, even) will not take the time to learn or even be vaguely familiar with all of the Chicago rules for various languages. Perhaps that isn't too much of an issue, though (for members, not staff), since it's far more likely that most people interacting with country-specific items will be either local residents of that country or versed in its language(s).

However, following Chicago to its exact standards creates problems for hundreds if not thousands of existing database entries. After reading over its Japanese section (specifically 11.86 and 11.87), it calls for using the modified Hepburn system of romanization which recommends macrons (e.g. ē, ō, ū) for certain words (e.g. おねえさん romanizing to onēsan instead of oneesan) alongside the use of an apostrophe after a syllabic n for certain words (e.g. しんよう romanizing to shin'yō instead of shinyou.)

While I think I'd personally prefer for us to follow Chicago rules extensively beyond the English language, it may be an unrealistic expectation and cause far more problems for us that aren't needed.

[bobi]

By “why fix what isn’t broken?”, I mean why enforcing typographical rules for items that already sorted that out themselves (at least for what concerns titles with latin alphabet)?
I understand they may be exceptions, e.g. for titles stylized as full caps, having you to decide what is supposed to be capitalized when unstylized, but shouldn’t you treat them as exceptions rather than trying to nail them with rules that become a burden for unproblematic entries?

I mean, I see the french subtitle on the front cover of Baten Kaitos and I read « Les ailes éternelles et l’océan perdu »
What’s wrong with that?

the majority of members (and perhaps staff, even) will not take the time to learn or even be vaguely familiar with all of the Chicago rules for various languages.

Sorry if I dig a tad too much in the manual, you hit my uncanny kink for typography among languages putting that onto the table

[dhaabi]

What’s wrong with that?

Chicago dictates the formatting you're suggesting: Les ailes éternelles et l’océan perdu. However, earlier instruction in this topic seems to indicate that we're to apply English-specific Chicago rules onto non-English languages which have their own rules within the system. If all of these Chicago rules are deemed to be too complex for the purposes of our site (which I assume most would feel that way), then we would likely default to how we currently (though unofficially) format non-English titles (e.g. Les Ailes Éternelles et l’Océan Perdu, not Les ailes éternelles et l’océan perdu.) Because, while it may seem straightforward for French titles (though I'd disagree given the nature of this very conversation that includes three examples you've provided earlier with your own varying opinions), it will not be for titles in other languages. Enforcing these standards should be applicable to all languages, not just some.

Nevertheless, it's a good conversation for us to have, as the finer points of grammar are seldom simple. Like I said before, it's not that I personally prefer to ignore Chicago rules on an overarching level, but I don't think that we as a community can restructure so much of what's already in the database to this extent. Realistically, entries would remain as they are in their current format for years, and many more would continue to be submitted using old formatting practices. Obviously, this conversation also comes at a time when we're already working toward rebuilding so much of what's been lost which will take a long time to accomplish.

So we're clear, this is just conversation—I'm not dictating how to enforce certain rules or establishing new ones. At this point, we really just need to wait for others' input on the matter.

[tripredacus]

What’s wrong with that?

However, earlier instruction in this topic seems to indicate that we're to apply English-specific Chicago rules onto non-English languages which have their own rules within the system. If all of these Chicago rules are deemed to be too complex for the purposes of our site (which I assume most would feel that way), then we would likely default to how we currently (though unofficially) format non-English titles (e.g. Les Ailes Éternelles et l’Océan Perdu, not Les ailes éternelles et l’océan perdu.) Because, while it may seem straightforward for French titles (though I'd disagree given the nature of this very conversation that includes three examples you've provided earlier with your own varying opinions), it will not be for titles in other languages. Enforcing these standards should be applicable to all languages, not just some.

Yes, apply the English rules to non-English titles, even if the languages used in those titles have their own Chicago guides. Doing so allows us (as individuals) be able to handle entries from any language in the world as long as we can get a translation for it, without us having to fully understand how all of these languages are constructed. It also removes the requirement of having to retain native speakers for all of these languages. Over years, members come and go, and we should feel fortunate when a member from a specific country is here and active, but that is not always the case. If we adopt some specific rules for French titles, what happens when there are no French members to ask about a specific thing? It is not a great example because France (and Quebec) is well represented, however this issue exists for other countries.

It is another example of why we would want to use rules that apply to everything to try to make it as simple as we can. Using France or French items is not a great example to use, but think of the more obscure language releases that we cover and it may make more sense. Unfortunately that may mean that native speakers may become frustrated about certain representations. Some day we can think up a way to programmatically resolve this issue, but I believe the current method makes everything more accessible to everyone.

[bobi]

A rule that applies to everything, that I suggested earlier and see none of you address, is: use the capitalization as written on the front of the item itself.

And if, for whatever reason*, this is not feasible, fallback to Chicago english rules.

What would be the issue there?
I’ll go further, why is that not the current rule? why enforcing Chicago everywhere instead of this arguably as simple and more item-faithful alternative?

* possible reasons already mentioned earlier: title not in latin alphabet, title stylized in full uppercase or in full lowercase (making it impossible to know its capitalization).

[dhaabi]

A rule that applies to everything, that I suggested earlier and see none of you address, is: use the capitalization as written on the front of the item itself.

Plenty of items feature heavily stylized title names with more marketable and appealing graphic art design. After going through some of my own collection, here are items that would be changed all in various ways with such a proposed rule:
America's TEST KITCHEN: Let's Get Cooking
boktai: The Sun is in Your Hand
bOnk's revenge
caLLIng
CHILD of LIGHT
OKAge: sHadow kiNg

At the same time, there are some items which don't have front cover titles, such as 209324.

Another thing worth pointing out is that this presents plenty of scenarios where one person may interpret letter casing in one way while another interprets it differently. The use of small caps is common, and plenty of people mistakenly transcribe it as full uppercase. Having one standardized rule not only makes it easier but also solves the issue of reader interpretation.

Still, you yourself mention that such a proposed rule wouldn't apply to certain types of items, such as items with non-Latin titles. Why have multiple rule sets when one is far simpler to implement?

[bobi]

Ok.

Let me get this out then: between this, last week’s utter nonsense of Brütal Legend developped by EA, and plenty of other quirks, rules there are unlenient to the extreme. To the point you actually discourage participation and investment rather than fairly loosen those a bit when arguments (which, I must confess, I have the audacity to consider sensible) are brought to your attention.

Because to be frank, I have close to no motivation anymore to invest time and patience there when every little try to question an enforced ruleset is welcome with “nothing will change.”
And I did not even addressed yet the absolute absence of answers to the questions as to what can be done by users to save all data related to their collection, should the website suffer another crash.

At last, blaming every now and then the database schema for oh such a strict observance is just the cherry on the cake.

[tripredacus]

If you go to this page
https://vgcollect.com/about/bobi
Which you can get to when viewing your collection and clicking your avatar
You can see a settings link. On that page, there is an Export option, where you can export your collection to CSV.

[tripredacus]

A rule that applies to everything, that I suggested earlier and see none of you address, is: use the capitalization as written on the front of the item itself.

We went through all of that years ago. It didn't work and maybe would make 1 or 2 people happy but everyone else got very upset.
So don't take it the wrong way when I say that it is preferable to use a rule where only 1 or 2 people get upset and everyone else is fine with it.
But also remember that I also would prefer handling it programmatically, as I've said, change the site so that a user can decide how they want to see things. Until we can do something like that, we'll stick to the way we have it now so that we don't rock the boat too much.

I don't know if I saw any reply, did you answer this question that was asked previously regarding l'ocean?
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,10891.msg208806.html#msg208806