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VGCollect Secret Santa Feedback
dhaabi:
--- Quote from: sworddude on January 11, 2024, 05:38:48 am ---
--- Quote from: dhaabi on January 09, 2024, 09:58:16 am ---
--- Quote from: puddingm on January 09, 2024, 05:26:52 am ---
--- Quote ---Traditionally, and with good reason, the budget for any Secret Santa event is encouraged to be adhered to, as it ensures every participant is both receiving and giving items of near equal value which prevents participants from feeling like their gift to give was worth more than the gift they received
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The above was my understanding, it's a minimum and a guide. People can exceed that budget if they choose to but not to the extent where we need to use the word "excessively" exceeding = no hard feelings from anyone.
In my view, there is a difference between exceeding the budget 'within a reasonable range' vs exceeding the budget 'excessively'. Hope it makes sense ::)
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For instance, some may consider totals more than 10% or higher to be excessive, while some consider it to be 20% or higher. Of course, that is something we as a group could define together.
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10% is only 6$ though. you gotto try hard on average to spot that difference I feel even with 20% tbh which is 10ish$. I assume this is not the issue cause ye gotto try hard to spot a difference in this case. it's within the 60$ ball park in that scenario.
The bigger difference might be how people value that 60$ limit. is it their actual costs (excluding shipping) or the average market value.
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The 10% and 20% over-budget percentages mentioned are examples and not meant to exclusively apply to VGC's Secret Santa event but instead to all similar events. Obviously, budgets for these sort of gift-giving events vary largely, so that added value may or may not be noticeable. With that said, any over-budget expenses aren't meant to be noticeable, because the funds spent across all parties are meant to be of equal value. If it is noticeable, then too much money was spent.
Shipping is another topic which will be discussed later.
--- Quote from: sworddude on January 11, 2024, 05:38:48 am ---2nd hand prices aren't that stable. Perhaps someone only has acces to retro stores or ebay and got stuff at a subpar price, while somebody else got stuff at a really sharp price great acces to games, or sniped a great ebay auction while not exceeding the budget to much or at all in which the average market value might be higher but their cost basis is within that 60$ ball park.
even with new stuff deal hunting, clearances black friday etc the price differences will be notable compared to buying it as usual.
Differences will always exist I feel. it depends on the person how they look at that 60$ limit aside from especially older stuff varying in price big time.
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This is a good point to introduce. Of course, market value for items may widely fluctuate. So, it's certainly possible for someone to secure a high-dollar item for a low cost, and vice-versa. For those reasons alone, whatever the agreed upon budget is can't be determined by market value but instead by funds spent. But, on that note, it isn't as if anyone can force a participant to stay within budget, and there's no way to prove it, regardless. After all, nobody is asking for receipts to be supplied, nor should they be. Although, if it's agreed upon to adhere to a certain budget, it can be highly encouraged so that the rules and expectations of the event are kept in good faith.
With that said, if somebody does want to noticeably go over-budget, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from sending additional items outside of the Secret Santa gift-giving exchange. After all, they already have the required shipping information. So, if someone is wanting to send extra gifts or gifts of higher value, we could easily encourage for them to do so separate from the public gift-giving exchange and in private. Or, if items are all wanting to be shipped together in one package to save on shipping costs, items could be clearly marked as may be shared with public and do not share with public. This would allow for everyone who joins any live gift-opening event or who posts publicly about their gifts to all remain within the same general level of value spent and value received.
--- Quote from: puddingm on January 11, 2024, 10:10:21 am ---
--- Quote ---10% is only 6$ though. you gotto try hard on average to spot that difference I feel even with 20% tbh which is 10ish$. I assume this is not the issue cause ye gotto try hard to spot a difference in this case. it's within the 60$ ball park in that scenario.
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Yeah - %s probably not the best reference (visually on its own makes it 'look excessive' but not in reality by $ :P) to be used for that 'range/excessive'.
i.e. If the budget is $60 and someone spends say $80-100 - the majority will probably see that as being a 'reasonable range' (once again views can differ).
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Analyzing the differences by percentage yields a more objective results, though. Spending an additional 33%-66%, no matter what the agreed upon budget has been set as, does not sound reasonable to me, and I think many others would agree. At that amount, it is far past the point to when the budget should have just been raised higher.
puddingm:
--- Quote ---Spending an additional 33%-66%, no matter what the agreed upon budget has been set as, does not sound reasonable to me, and I think many others would agree. At that amount, it is far past the point to when the budget should have just been raised higher.
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That's not what the poll result is showing though or I may be looking at the result differently?
The agreed budget will matter in my view when it comes to what is considered as "reasonable" for that additional % - if it goes by % (regardless of how it looks visually).
i.e.
If the budget is set at $60, even if it is at 33% additional, it's only like $20 extra = $80.
However, if the budget is set at $100, then at 33% additional, it would go up to $33 extra = $133.
And imagine if the budget is set at $200, then at 33% additional, it would go all the way up to $66 extra = $266.
In such cases, would it not influence people to reconsider what is considered as 'reasonable' for that additional %?
I mean, people will most likely accept 33% additional at a $60 budget vs accepting 33% additional at a $100/$200 budget etc.
In general, I see two parts to this question.
* whether we agree that the budget is a minimum (and a guide)
* whether we should allow people to exceed 'excessively' if they choose to i.e. not just exceeding but exceeding 'excessively' - whatever the word 'excessively' means for people
dhaabi:
--- Quote from: puddingm on January 11, 2024, 12:53:41 pm ---
--- Quote ---Spending an additional 33%-66%, no matter what the agreed upon budget has been set as, does not sound reasonable to me, and I think many others would agree. At that amount, it is far past the point to when the budget should have just been raised higher.
--- End quote ---
In general, I see two parts to this question.
* whether we agree that the budget is a minimum (and a guide)
* whether we should allow people to exceed 'excessively' if they choose to i.e. not just exceeding but exceeding 'excessively' - whatever the word 'excessively' means for people
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The actual monetary values matter little, and the poll fails to gain useful information because "excessively" isn't defined. If the budget was agreed to $200, its 33% increase to $266 is no different than a $60 budget exceeded to $80 because they share the same percentage increase.
The poll was made only to gain a general idea for where 2023's participants stand on certain issues. If this issue was wanting to gain actual results and opinions regarding the budget, we'd need to decide how much of a percentage increase (if any) should the budget be allowed to be in excess. Again, bear in mind that every gift should aim to be as close as possible to another in equal value. So, this could be a possible poll scenario:
--- Quote ---Should participants be allowed to spend in excess, past the agreed upon budget?
- No. Participants should remain within the budget, aiming for the agreed upon total as close as possible.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 5% if they want.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 10% if they want.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 15% if they want.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 20% if they want.
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In the example polling question above, I capped the percentages at 20%. Which, even 20% is steep. I'm firm in my opinion (emphasis on my opinion) that a higher percentage means that the budget itself should be increased. Whatever amount the agreed upon budget happens to be, as I explained above, does not matter.
sworddude:
--- Quote from: dhaabi on January 11, 2024, 04:23:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: puddingm on January 11, 2024, 12:53:41 pm ---
--- Quote ---Spending an additional 33%-66%, no matter what the agreed upon budget has been set as, does not sound reasonable to me, and I think many others would agree. At that amount, it is far past the point to when the budget should have just been raised higher.
--- End quote ---
In general, I see two parts to this question.
* whether we agree that the budget is a minimum (and a guide)
* whether we should allow people to exceed 'excessively' if they choose to i.e. not just exceeding but exceeding 'excessively' - whatever the word 'excessively' means for people
--- End quote ---
The actual monetary values matter little, and the poll fails to gain useful information because "excessively" isn't defined. If the budget was agreed to $200, its 33% increase to $266 is no different than a $60 budget exceeded to $80 because they share the same percentage increase.
The poll was made only to gain a general idea for where 2023's participants stand on certain issues. If this issue was wanting to gain actual results and opinions regarding the budget, we'd need to decide how much of a percentage increase (if any) should the budget be allowed to be in excess. Again, bear in mind that every gift should aim to be as close as possible to another in equal value. So, this could be a possible poll scenario:
--- Quote ---Should participants be allowed to spend in excess, past the agreed upon budget?
- No. Participants should remain within the budget, aiming for the agreed upon total as close as possible.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 5% if they want.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 10% if they want.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 15% if they want.
- Yes. Participants should be allowed to exceed the budget by 20% if they want.
--- End quote ---
In the example polling question above, I capped the percentages at 20%. Which, even 20% is steep. I'm firm in my opinion (emphasis on my opinion) that a higher percentage means that the budget itself should be increased. Whatever amount the agreed upon budget happens to be, as I explained above, does not matter.
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% aside if where talking money wise 20$, is not that much. 40$ sure it gets notable but like we agreed on, prices in terms of 2nd hand goods vary big time. so it also depends how hard the buyer was hunting for deals/lucky. you also said that cost basis is a thing. and the bigger differences can be found here if you can score stuff at the lower end.
Plus like you said you can't really prove that people exceeded the budget big time unless it's stated.
At the very end of the day though nobody is forced to go over the budget. you can stick to the 60$ budget as stated. if you go above that more power to you. especially since it's hard to prove + in combination with market prices varying from day to day. and prices for stuff really being dependent on where or when you get your stuff.
Since you can't really prove how much each invidual spend for them to spend an excessive amount, why this topic? Differences will always exist since 2nd hand goods can vary in price big time. For this reason alone it's kinda pointless conversation.If people go below 60$ with a noticable margin, yes that's an issue. but I do find it strange that we have a topic for the opposite. Isn't it pretty fun to have a shot at getting stuff over 60$ instead of everyone getting close or a bit over 60$. if people want to give more, more power to em I'd say.
Nobody is expecting to get much more than 60$, and nobody should expect to get more if they give more since the budget is 60$. I don't think most have an issue with this and are aware of the finer details.
dhaabi:
--- Quote from: sworddude on January 11, 2024, 07:47:28 pm ---At the very end of the day though nobody is forced to go over the budget. you can stick to the 60$ budget as stated. if you go above that more power to you. especially since it's hard to prove + in combination with market prices varying from day to day. and prices for stuff really being dependent on where or when you get your stuff.
Since you can't really prove how much each invidual spend for them to spend an excessive amount, why this topic? Differences will always exist since 2nd hand goods can vary in price big time. For this reason alone it's kinda pointless conversation.If people go below 60$ with a noticable margin, yes that's an issue. but I do find it strange that we have a topic for the opposite. Isn't it pretty fun to have a shot at getting stuff over 60$ instead of everyone getting close or a bit over 60$. if people want to give more, more power to em I'd say.
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It's been introduced as something to discuss because adhering to a budget is commonplace and expected when participating in gift exchange events. A maximum exists for the same reason that a minimum does—again, to ensure that gifts given and gifts received are equal, both on an individual level and group level. If there is to be no maximum, then why is there a minimum? With this logic, the event could easily be organized as one without any declared budget, leaving participants to freely send gifts of whatever monetary value—however high or low—of their choosing. With that said, I doubt many, if any, would blindly consider participating in a gift exchange with that lack of budget structure. But, based on feedback provided, that sort of format can certainly be explored. It seems you yourself are promoting it, at the very least. As you've been saying, there is no way for anyone to verify the funds spend for another's gift purchases, so perhaps ignoring a budget altogether—and instead simply asking participants to give what they think is a suitable amount—is more ideal.
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