Author Topic: The popping of the indie bubble  (Read 1691 times)

insektmute

  • Guest
The popping of the indie bubble
« on: November 05, 2013, 10:47:34 pm »
So I was checking Twitter on my way home from work, as I often do, and some had posted a link to a blog post by Jeff Vogel, whose company develops games like Avadon: The Black Fortress.

It basically boils down to the idea that the craze over indie games will die down, and developers need to adjust both their approach and expectations accordingly. This conclusion seems like fairly common sense to me; the market is oversaturated, except instead of games being shoveled out by the truckload by publishers, we now have guys in their bedrooms with delusions of being "deep" and being "beyond typical game experiences" contributing to the problem.

I brought this up on Facebook though, and one of my friends seems to think indie games guarantee experiences that couldn't possibly come from any sort of codified company, let alone those with an SEC filing. I suggested that it's pretty peculiar that a company like Thatgamecompany is considered "indie" while one like Nippon Ichi is not, despite the strong probability that NIS probably has a much more difficult time securing funding, as evidenced by their not too distant financial struggles.

My own stance is that there are games worth playing, and games not worth playing, regardless of their development model, and the indie "scene" needs to start being held to the same standards we apply to games released by larger publishers. Far too many indie games fall short in almost every respect, but are given a pass or overwhelmingly praised because they're pretty good "for an indie game" but would be considered absolute shit if that safety net were eliminated.

Thoughts?

jobocan

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2013, 11:09:53 pm »
Totally agree with you. I don't care how few people made the game or how big/small the budget was, a good game is a good game and a bad game is a bad game. A lot of games sold solely because they're "indie", and I think that's pretty stupid.

I feel most indie games lack quality control, or try too hard to be "quirky" or "meaningful" at the expense of fun gameplay, so most games just feel shallow. I've played/seen so many of these crappy games where the only gameplay is just walking forward and following a story... Super lazy and not fun.
This goes for any dev: I don't give 2 craps if your game has a meaningful story or nice graphics or Ellen Page, if the gameplay isn't good it's a bad game.

Not to say there aren't some great indie games. I have SO many hours logged on The Binding of Isaac, for example. But people give too much regard to the indie scene when it's no better than the "standard" gaming scene (I'd even argue that it's worse). It's no "savior of gaming" as I've seen people say.

insektmute

  • Guest
Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 01:07:09 am »
Yeah, the quality control aspect is something that bugs me. On one hand, it's fantastic that people can sit down, channel their ideas into something, and come out with a concrete, playable game, but on the other, it also means that for every one game that really shines, there are dozens that are utter trash.

I'm sure some people think the same of the non-indie market, but I think most of our collections would tend to fly in the face of that line of thinking.

ffxik

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 03:45:21 am »
I'm not familiar with the indie scene as far as the PC goes.  I have gone through the indie shop on Xbox Live many times and I got to say your pretty spot on.  I can imagine the over-saturation a platform like the PC is dealing with.


insektmute

  • Guest
Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 03:46:28 pm »
The sad thing is, there are some really cool indie developed games on Steam, GOG, and elsewhere, but the waters have gotten pretty muddy, esp. with stuff like 'early access' games that are still in development and Steam Greenlight stuff. Seems like a lot of sites have pretty much given up even trying to review half of it.

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 12:09:59 pm »
There are both Pros and Cons to the Indie scene.

On the one hand, the indie scene has been producing an awful lot of garbage lately. Many games have been released before they are even finished and are being patched so slowly I so no point in the future when the game will be actually finished.

On the other hand, indie games have given hope to several genres that many people thought were killed off by next gen consoles. You have to understand, triple A games have become increasingly expensive to make because people demand better and better graphics. As a result, game developers have been trying to make their games appeal to as many people as possible in order for it to sell well, which is why Dead Space 3 was an action/adventure game and had virtually no horror. Indie developers are able to create games with unqiue and interesting game mechanics that are cost effective because they sacrifice graphics.

insektmute

  • Guest
Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2014, 02:44:34 pm »
You have to understand, triple A games have become increasingly expensive to make because people demand better and better graphics. As a result, game developers have been trying to make their games appeal to as many people as possible in order for it to sell well, which is why Dead Space 3 was an action/adventure game and had virtually no horror. Indie developers are able to create games with unqiue and interesting game mechanics that are cost effective because they sacrifice graphics.

That's really a misleading concept perpetuated by publishers. Games aren't cheap, no, but the amount of money being poured into marketing, outsourcing firms (which actually cost more per employee), extraneous development staff, excessively tight deadlines, and overblown expectations is a huge part of the issue. Resident Evil 6 had over 600 developers involved, including those working under contract from Korea, China, and elsewhere. Series like Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty are pumping out new games with barely a year between them.

The problem is that everybody wants every game to be Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto and sell 30 million copies, and so what's being spent per game isn't always appropriate for the game being made, and in an effort to appeal to everyone and hit those numbers, publishers are continually trying to retool every series they have, only to find that nobody was asking for every single game on the planet to be a multiplayer DLC fest with explosions and drab, grey dudes running around. Constantly trying to correct mistakes by making more mistakes is causing a lot of companies (Square Enix and Capcom being two of the worst culprits) to bleed money. Outsourcing everything with no focus on employee retention or investment in a lasting creative pool is causing companies to bleed money. Games like Tomb Raider, Hitman, and Resident Evil 6 have all sold millions of copies and were considered failures, despite more than quadrupling what sales expectations would've been several years ago. The same is true of dozens upon dozens of others.

Factor in DLC, which often costs virtually nothing to create (costumes and skins being particularly cheap), and publishers are sweeping up cash from it... but still posting losses because what they're promising to stockholders is completely out of touch with reality.

Then there's the human factor, wherein people can only work 50-80 hour work weeks for so long before they reach physical, emotional, and creative burnout, and probably spend most of their time on autopilot. They're working more hours, but less productive, particularly in the US. Statistically speaking, the US workforce puts in more hours per week than most industrialized countries, but has considerably less to show for it. The reason? Less vacation time, longer hours, lower quality of life than counterparts in countries like Germany and France. This ultimately costs companies money.

Games should have actually become more affordable to create. CPU and GPU power are massively beyond what they were during the PS2 days, to the point where they've levelled out somewhat for the first time ever - the emphasis now is more on power efficiency rather than sheer processing power. Computers and servers are cheaper to build than ever, making it possible to build large rendering farms running Linux for next to nothing. Since they're drastically more power efficient, even the electric bill should be going down.

A good case in point: Some years back, it cost me $325 for 1GB of low latency DDR SDRAM. It now costs me around $70-100 for 8-16GB of DDR3 SDRAM.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 02:47:33 pm by insektmute »

soera

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 02:48:32 pm »
Indie games arent what they should/used to be. It seems to be a fad now that every knucklehead who thinks he is a game developer can put some piece of shit on a shingle and sell it as an indie game.

I will be glad when the indie scene is dead. Sure the game population is bigger cause of indie games but when they all suck, who cares anyhow?

insektmute

  • Guest
Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 03:00:57 pm »
Soera, do you play PC games much at all? Wondered if you'd seen the Steam "Early Access" garbage that's been popping up left and right over there...

soera

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 06:21:38 pm »
Nope, the only PC gaming I did was MMOs and I havent played one of those in over 2 years.

But I can definitely imagine whats out there.

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2014, 01:00:17 am »
It's a really unfortunate thing as well because I think indie games got popular because of lack of creativity in game devs. At that time we basically only had Call of Duty and other games trying to be Call of Duty. Now everything has shifted and everybody wants to be indie... On that note, I must say, I didn't care much for braid... It feels so pretentious with the intermissions and the overall story and I think that's what a lot of indie games are. A lot of them are just a product of their time and probably wont be looked back on with a lot of praise.

I don't think the indie scene should be dead, I think it is a good way to keep big devs in check, however it has gone overboard


MJMaranan

PRO Supporter

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2014, 01:09:40 am »
As far as "Early Access" games go, my friend and I bought "Don't Starve."  The game's pretty awesome and the developers are still adding/balancing certain items there and then.  My brother plays "Kenshi," a samurai-esque Fallout-type with RTS-hybrid.  The game is still being expanded as I talk about it but when my brother first played the game, the surroundings looked pretty bleak.


Please check out the games I have for sale.

amauriel

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2014, 03:45:53 am »
Most of what I've played in the last 2 years has been indie games. I have a night free, I spend a buck or two on Steam and get a game I can finish that night. For a while, I never knew the next time I'd have a chance to play, so they were perfect. That being said, the Early Access crap is just that...crap. Games are buggy, people pay for promises, and it's much easier to get burned on than even Kickstarter. An example of the worst of the indie game situation right now: http://kotaku.com/no-cash-and-a-failed-kickstarter-is-why-dark-matter-end-1448432784. I won't mess with early release games, and it angers me when Steam advertises a sale for a game that hasn't even come close to being finished yet.

However, games like Dear Esther, AudioSurf, Cook, Serve, Delicious!, and Papers, Please keep me coming back to indie games. I like to see the experiments and what has worked well and not so well. I just got The Novelist when it was on sale and I can't wait to get a minute to try it out. I'd consider The Stanley Parable one of the best games I've ever played. I don't want to see the indie scene go away, but I would like to see it evolve into a more viable marketplace.

"You can buy everything, except love, friendship, and exp. points."


insektmute

  • Guest
Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2014, 01:54:25 pm »
It's a really unfortunate thing as well because I think indie games got popular because of lack of creativity in game devs.

I tend to question this assertion, though I see it commonly cited as the reason so many are going the indie route. There are a lot of really stylish, creative, and inventive games that get fantastic reviews across the board and do horribly in sales. On the same token, there are weird and quirky games like Katamari Damacy that were produced by a big company and sell like hotcakes.

As far as I can tell, most people buying indie games are either people who weren't hardcore gamers to begin with and find them more approachable, hardcore gamers who obsessively hunt for Steam sales and Humble Bundle goodies and almost accidentally buy them, or hipsters who think they're sticking it to The Man and don't realize that 2D side-scrollers and JRPGs never went away.

Re: The popping of the indie bubble
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2014, 11:20:34 pm »
You would think that indie games would come in and satisfy the people that always say "they should make games like they did on the Super Nintendo, only with better graphics!", but you tell them about indie games, and they seem to want indie games made by Capcom and Konami.  With the game industry becoming more like the movie industry, perhaps the big studios will start creating 'indie' games, just like how major movie studios make quasi "indie" style movies because they know people are interested in them?  Good question!