SHMUPS, Fighters, & How to Enjoy Them?

[fauxshot]

Hey all!

This topic is an idea that has come to mind before, and now seems like a good time to get it out there, so I figured I'd post it.

I've enjoyed a lot of games over the years; racing games, shooters, various types of RPGs, interactive visual novels, strategy games, and others, of course. Naturally, everyone seems to gravitate toward a handful of genres, and typically will tout a few as their favorites. Two genres which I have not really been able to 'get myself into', however, are SHMUPS and fighting games. Back in the day I enjoyed Tekken games, and I certainly enjoyed the demo of Einhander as a kid, but as a young adult I've never really been able to 'get into' these two genres very much.

Normally, I might just avoid these genres, but it's very hard to review a genre you don't know how to appreciate/enjoy. So it made me think that creating this thread might be useful in the future, or at the very least provide a little bit of insight and some fun discussion.

So, the question is; how do you play/enjoy a SHMUP/Fighting game? It's not just a question of what makes one good or bad, but also a question of how these games are 'supposed' to be enjoyed (before we get to the argument, I'm well aware that many different people play/enjoy many different games in many different ways, but I do feel that each genre has it's own set of player expectations/attitudes which the makers of these games generally keep in mind.)

I do have some SHMUPS and a fighting game or two, but I guess I don't really know how to enjoy them. For example, I've already beat the main story of DeathSmiles; it only takes perhaps 20 minutes to do so. However, this is obviously a game that is meant to be replayed, keeping in mind things like score and deathcount. So I might, for example, as the question "what do I do next?" Is it all about getting a high score? Speed runs? Etc.? Are there goals that SHMUP players tend to go for when playing?

As another example, I have Persona Arena, and will probably get Skullgirls. But how do I get the most out of my experience? Learning movelists and mastering characters? Beating arcade mode at the highest difficulty? What do fans of the genre usually do?

I hope I've been clear enough, I realize that my words are probably a bit murky. ^^; I'd like to be a fan of and enjoy these two genres, but I'm not really sure what the typical way of doing so, is. I'd like to learn more about how people play these games, and how to get the most out of them.

[stealthrush]

Hey all!

This topic is an idea that has come to mind before, and now seems like a good time to get it out there, so I figured I'd post it.

I've enjoyed a lot of games over the years; racing games, shooters, various types of RPGs, interactive visual novels, strategy games, and others, of course. Naturally, everyone seems to gravitate toward a handful of genres, and typically will tout a few as their favorites. Two genres which I have not really been able to 'get myself into', however, are SHMUPS and fighting games. Back in the day I enjoyed Tekken games, and I certainly enjoyed the demo of Einhander as a kid, but as a young adult I've never really been able to 'get into' these two genres very much.

Normally, I might just avoid these genres, but it's very hard to review a genre you don't know how to appreciate/enjoy. So it made me think that creating this thread might be useful in the future, or at the very least provide a little bit of insight and some fun discussion.

So, the question is; how do you play/enjoy a SHMUP/Fighting game? It's not just a question of what makes one good or bad, but also a question of how these games are 'supposed' to be enjoyed (before we get to the argument, I'm well aware that many different people play/enjoy many different games in many different ways, but I do feel that each genre has it's own set of player expectations/attitudes which the makers of these games generally keep in mind.)

I do have some SHMUPS and a fighting game or two, but I guess I don't really know how to enjoy them. For example, I've already beat the main story of DeathSmiles; it only takes perhaps 20 minutes to do so. However, this is obviously a game that is meant to be replayed, keeping in mind things like score and deathcount. So I might, for example, as the question "what do I do next?" Is it all about getting a high score? Speed runs? Etc.? Are there goals that SHMUP players tend to go for when playing?

As another example, I have Persona Arena, and will probably get Skullgirls. But how do I get the most out of my experience? Learning movelists and mastering characters? Beating arcade mode at the highest difficulty? What do fans of the genre usually do?

I hope I've been clear enough, I realize that my words are probably a bit murky. ^^; I'd like to be a fan of and enjoy these two genres, but I'm not really sure what the typical way of doing so, is. I'd like to learn more about how people play these games, and how to get the most out of them.

My two favorite vg-genres of all time!

As for fighting games, I suggest you look into the FGC = Fighting Game Community. The medium has elevated and has a ever-growing population of individuals who compete online and IRL for large sums of money (see EVO 2015). EventHubs is a good place to start.

Now I understand to a casual gamer who just wants to enjoy Fighting games this may not suit you. That being said, you can sell your games after you've completed them. You may have already noticed a trend of relatively NEW fighting games (Persona Arena for example) and SHMUPS being sold at moderately low prices compared to other genres for this very reason you brought up. Most gamer after completing the game decide to sell it or buy the next game.

I think the genre such as SHMUPS and Fighting have more to them than just finishing them. Rather training your reflexes, and memorization at a more personal level. Oh and this is coming from someone who has been playing the same fighting game for years (see timeline)

[bikingjahuty]

I guess it boils down to personal taste. I personally am drawn to games that test my wits and reflexes, and fighting games (some of them at least) and SHMUPs do just that. I love how challenging yet fair they are (most of the time), and I think playing the right games for each genre is the best way to get into them and enjoy them. Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga, Mars Matrix, Dodonpachi, and R-type are excellent places to start if you're looking for some of the best places to start in this genre. As far as fighting games go, I am way more of a 2D fighting game fan than a 3D one. King of Fighters is my absolute favorite fighting franchise and it's fast paced, balanced gameplay can be very addictive. I don't know if any of this helps, but there you go.

[atarileaf]

"Shumps" are a natural progression of old arcade single shooter games like Galaga or Phoenix which is why a lot of shmup fans are also fans of old arcade games. When I bought my original TG-16 one of my first purchases was Blazing Lazers because it felt like a souped up version of my favorite arcade games.

Obviously you don't need to be a fan of early arcade shooters to like shmups however, it's just my 2 cents.

I've never liked Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat style games so I can't really comment on that part of it.

[stethebubble]

i love fighting games.
it all started with street fighter 2 arcade for me. i remember playing tekken 2 for the first time on arcade, this is the game which made my cousin buy a PSX. since that day it has been my fav fighter.

[kashell]

Funny how I was thinking about dropping competitive play in fighting games and this topic comes up. I can't really comment on Shoot 'em Ups, but as for fighting games...

I enjoy(ed) fighting games by doing well against other players. That's what gives/gave me the most satisfaction. Arcade mode is fine, but not a good way to learn. So, I suggest asking yourself this: do you want to do a deep dive into the scene and get competitive or do you just want to go through arcade/story modes and move to the next tile? For the latter, just learn the basics and have fun.

For competitive play, I always tell people to pick one franchise and stick with it. You mentioned you had P4A, so I'll suggest you go with that for now. Check out some of videos of characters that you think you would like to use. You can watch videos on YouTube or you can check out dustloop.com and get some really, -REALLY- helpful insight. Having a "main" is a sure-fire way to get started. Alternating characters can lead to some confusion.

If you don't see anyone worth using in P4A, check out another fighting game series. There are very active scenes for Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, King of Fighters, BlazBlue and my favorite: Guilty Gear. Just to name a few. UNIEL is one I can definitely see you getting into just based on the characters. Arcana Heart is fun, too.

So, yeah. XD Doing well in matches is how I earn maximum satisfaction, but the problem with doing that is that takes lots and LOTS of time. If you think you might get the most enjoyment from this route, I'll also suggest doing research on whether or not you want to use a control pad or a fighting stick.

[Warmsignal]

For me, it's just in the challenge of playing and actually getting somewhere in these games. They're both very action intensive genres, you have to have quick reflexes and sharp concentration at all times. I don't play an abundance of these and I'm far from being skilled at them, but I started off with Gradius III a long time ago. I find the game somewhat hard. It's mostly memorization, but for me there's a certain satisfaction with actually progressing through each level after much trial and error. Same thing with Life Force, Phalanx, Halley Wars, and games like Star Fox or Soul Star too. For me it's just the drive to win after constantly dying. I've never actually played any modern SHUMPS, so I don't know if they are easier. But you make DeathSmiles sounds very easy. Maybe you're just a lot better than I am.

As for fighters, I had my start on Mortal Kombat. Sort of the same deal as SHUMPS, except with some of them it helps to really learn a certain character's special moves. Just always liked that snese of progression and moving my way up to the top. Button mashing doesn't work for all of them, though. Again, I've always found fighters to be hard. I kind of prefer 3D ones where you can move around in the environment, ones which are a little less straightforward.

Maybe you are just a god at games and these genres offer little challenge for you? I like both of these types of games, but they're more about action and reflexes than anything. For some people that hits the spot. I guess in my own head, I tend to look at them as though they are adventures of some sort because that's what I like most in games - adventure and exploration.

Definitely try some more older tittles, though. As I'm not sure how these genres are holding up nowadays. I've not played many modern ones.

[burningdoom]

With a bowl and a Pepsi. 

[fauxshot]

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I'll address each post individually:

stealthrush - I'll try taking a look at FGC, if just to learn a little more about the genre. Perhaps what I'm more interested in is learning about it from a design perspective ('types' of characters, such as slow-and-hard-hitting, which act as standard character/moveset archetypes), but in any case I'm sure it'd help, thanks! Haha, and no way I'd probably sell 'em at this point, I've made that mistake too many times. xP I also think that it may just be the nature of the genre which is my problem; I sorta like tactical RPGs, so fast-paced is probably not really my thing. xD

bikingjahuty - I have played one R-Type game (DX I think? It was on the gameboy), and enjoyed it, so it's also possible that I'm just not playing the right games from each genre. There's a 3D one on the Vita, but I would also probably prefer 2D as well (but, I'll have to try a 3D one sometime, it's been a long time since I've played one).

atarileaf - There's one or two Street Fighter characters I like the design of, so I may pick it up eventually. I'm not huge on Mortal Kombat either lol.

stethebubble - I may have to pick up Tekken 3 again. I enjoyed the minigames and diverse character list. ^.^

kashell - Definitely not competitive lol. xD And no, I am definitely not a game god haha. xP I've been trying to finish P4G so I can play through the story mode of Arena, so I'm trying to do that this week. I'd like to start in before I (most likely) leave my PS3 behind. Which is why I've also considered picking up one or two fighting games for my Vita (I've heard that Senran Kagura is good, as well as Arcana Hearts, so I may pick the latter up... I'd rather have a cutesy-looking game than something like MK or Marvel vs. Capcom, honestly xD ).

I was actually kind of surprised that P4A and P4AU didn't get a Vita release.

Warmsignal - The reason that Deathsmiles is so easy to beat is because you can just keep pressing start to continue. xP Otherwise I probably never would have beaten it lol. ~w~

I probably should have picked up Guilty Gear when it was on sale in the humble store, but I wasn't really sure if I'd like it very much. Since I don't particularly care for the gameplay as of right now, the appeal to me lies more in the visuals.

[stealthrush]

Two types of gamer mindsets; Arcade oriented and Console oriented.

Arcade oriented goes on the notion of experiencing a good challenge on a personal level.
Console oriented goes on the notion of completing or finishing the game in its entirety.

SHUMPS, and Fighters originate from arcades so they essentially wont appeal to gamer brought up on consoles and completing scenarios.

Oh, and you can enjoy both too.

[maximo310]

Personally for Shmups, the goal is to try to beat the game with the resources given to you. Other options to add challenge to this are completing the game on one credit, trying to get the highest possible score.etc.  Most of the time, shmup players focus on either getting a one credit clear( 1cc) of the game, or trying to get the highest score on one credit.
Shmups can be pretty hard to get into because to do well in the genre, you need a good skill level that can be adapted to multiple games. It also doesn't help that since the late 1990s, most of the new shmups incroperate bullet hell elements which can turn many people off if they get overwhelemed by the amount of bullets on screen.
So I'll try my best to guide you on this:

For most older shmups like Gradius/Darius, you have a bigger emphasis on memorization of enemy patterns and stage layouts to get to victory,and scoring systems are pretty simple for the most parts whether it is collecting items/ killing enemies/ grabbing power ups. You also usually have different weapons that can be picked up from defeated enemies and can help you pass different sections of a stage.

For most of the newer shmups, memorization is still important, but scoring systems can get a lot more complicated such as proximity to the enemy( Ketsui), high rank+ metal collecting( Ibara/Battle Garegga), chaining enemies( Rayforce/ Raystorm/ DodonPachi/Radiant Silvergun). Most modern shmups, especially Cave's offerings, include a lot more bullets on screen for you to dodge, and reduce your's ship
s hitbox( area where your player ship is suspectable to enemy bullets) so that you have a fair challenge in weaving between those patterns.

So in the case of Deathsmiles, the basic strategy is to get high crowns( those silver crowns w/ a value of +10 compared to +1 for skeleton ring) from defeated enemies, and then enter power up mode and let the crowns split into four skeleton kings( because here a skeleton ring is +4, compared to the high crown value of +1).  You have a lock shot that will produce more items from some enemies when they are defeated and can be really helpful for power up mode and scoring. You also have to make sure that stages are at rank 3 or higher for good scoring, and that helps you get extra life blocks at different intervals. My suggestion, is to try to go for survival first by keeping the rank of each level as low as possible, and then practice and over time, increase the rank of the levels to get used to the patterns the game throws at you. It's probably the easiest bullet hell shmup to get a 1cc in, and could serve as a good gateway to other shmup games.