Author Topic: PS4K  (Read 2293 times)

PS4K
« on: March 31, 2016, 05:38:23 am »
So if you haven't heard, Sony is basically looking to bring out a mid-generation system replacement for the PS4 that will be straight up be a direct upgrade to the PS4 to mostly allow for 4K gaming.  The downside is that according to a verified person on Neogaf, games made with the new and improved specs, will suffer a drop in performance on original PS4 systems.  As someone that just bought their console, with a possible next year release date, this kind of sucks.  I don't really understand the point of doing this as I'm pretty positive that 4K isn't a thing yet.  Isn't it still at that mid to higher tier in consumer pricing? Looking at Best Buy, the name brand stuff for their cheapest and smallest, such as Sony is like 900 bucks for a 40" TV.  Most people don't have one, so why center your console around it now, directly affecting new games being made?

At first it seems like the New 3DS, and it is to a degree if Nintendo had not abandoned the idea of New 3DS exclusive games, but we saw with Hyrule Warriors Legends, they released a busted version of the game for regular 3DS owners.  I have to wonder if this is what we'll see with the PS4K, but unlike Nintendo, they aren't going to abandon things, and will greatly push forward the new games, making regular PS4 owners suffer because of this.

Why do this now and not the next gen cycle when there's a greater selection of 4K owners? I can't imagine there are remotely as many 4K owners as there are regular HDTV owners.  It's not like Sony is hurting like Nintendo and they need to get a big improvement out after suffering for years.  The PS4 has sold incredibly well its entire time and still dominating over the Xbone.  Why threaten possible sales by introducing brand new hardware and possibly alienating players?  Where are the people begging for 4K quality?  The PS4 has barely even had any serious system sellers outside of like maybe Bloodborne.  Heck, looking at a "Top PS4 Games List", it only has 4 actual PS4 games that are new and I'd probably only say 2 are truly worthwhile and I only played Bloodborne, because I don't want to play Until Dawn lol

This just mostly seems like a terrible decision to take your currently very well selling system, and cut it's feet off in favor of a version that I don't think a ton of people are going to want.  I know I don't care about 4K right now and won't for awhile.  We haven't even dropped DVD yet, but we are already trying to push in 4K? The heck is going on!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 05:42:46 am by kamikazekeeg »

Re: PS4K
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2016, 06:06:55 am »
I don't see the pushing games that will only perform well on the newer system, it doesn't make any sense business wise. It will probably just be a model that can output 4k with some support for it if developers choose to use it, but because i doubt many people will be buying this 4k model over the regular model, support will be limited. I am not too worried, but if they do botch it i will not be supporting them next gen.

Re: PS4K
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2016, 06:19:16 am »
I don't see the pushing games that will only perform well on the newer system, it doesn't make any sense business wise. It will probably just be a model that can output 4k with some support for it if developers choose to use it, but because i doubt many people will be buying this 4k model over the regular model, support will be limited. I am not too worried, but if they do botch it i will not be supporting them next gen.

It's a dual issue.  If they push the system and have developers supporting it, they risk angering supporters who've only had their system for 4 years at the very most if it's a fall 2017 release.  This could lead to people not wanting to upgrade, hence it not selling too great.  The other issue could turn out the same way, in that it's more of a New 3DS thing, where if developers don't do anything with the new hardware, there's no real reason to upgrade unless you want a 4k Blu-Ray player that can play games, which I don't think is a huge market right now.

If they treat it as a separate thing, with some minor developer support, maybe it can have life as its own thing, but I have to wonder if there is really a big market for it.  People are clearly willing to dump 400 bucks into hardware with VR, but a new console that will only truly be used to its fullest on a TV that is at minimum twice as expensive as the console?  I just can't see them taking the PS4K and running with it as their main hardware and getting people onboard.  Even as a side thing, like the optional VR, it can't have really that many people clamoring for it, unless I'm clearly underestimating the 4K market, but I don't feel I am too much.

abe

Re: PS4K
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2016, 08:08:02 am »
I've had my PS4 for less than two years and hearing this annoys me. I don't even have any televisions or monitors that support 4K, nor do I plan on buying one any time soon or a new PS4. If this new is true and ends up being more than just a rumor (which is very likely), I'll be sure to hold out on buying PS VR and a PS5 if that ever happens. With this and how poorly they've handled the Vita and PSTV in North America, I'm getting pretty frustrated with Sony's antics.
Currently playing: Persona 5 (PS4)

Re: PS4K
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2016, 08:30:28 am »
Could it be that this also has something to do with their new VR equipment coming out soonish? we have all heard that VR will require quite some processing power and that the PS4 to date is not really that great compared to a power house PC. For myself, I don't really mind buying a new PS4.5 or PS4K if I can get something out of it, more than just outputting 4K resolution that is

Re: PS4K
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2016, 08:43:15 am »
Ahhhhhh poor console peasants  ;)
Joking aside: While they are branding it as the 4K model I think the a reason for an upgrade is to assist existing games run smoother. There's still a few games that can't run at 1080, or 60fps. A boost in power could help the few struggling games out there. Additionally I believe the main reason is for virtual reality. Generally it takes a lot more power to render two different perspectives (one of each eye) simultaneously. Based on the recent prototypes: each eye is getting an image of 960 x 1080 refreshing at 120Hz. Those standards are a bit higher than your generic game.

insektmute

  • Guest
Re: PS4K
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2016, 10:30:37 am »
So if you haven't heard, Sony is basically looking to bring out a mid-generation system replacement for the PS4 that will be straight up be a direct upgrade to the PS4 to mostly allow for 4K gaming.  The downside is that according to a verified person on Neogaf, games made with the new and improved specs, will suffer a drop in performance on original PS4 systems.

I keep seeing this claim that they're moving into 4K, and while that's probably true for Blu-ray playback, it literally is impossible that they're going to pull off 4K gaming in a console.

In order to achieve playable results (30fps avg.) on a PC, you need a high-end graphics card, or two in order to hit 60fps avg., a relatively high-end CPU (preferrably an i5 or i7), and 8-16GB RAM. So for example:

http://www.techspot.com/review/1128-rise-of-the-tomb-raider-benchmarks/page4.html

You'll notice the 980 Ti and R9 Fury X are barely even able to crack 31 fps, and routinely dip well below that. These cards average around $650 a pop. If you want 60fps, you'll need two cards, which gets into $1200 territory. Toss in the CPU, that's another $300-350. Then you have to account for heat and noise, which can be considerable, even in a desktop PC.

Sony has plenty of bright people on staff, but the PS4 is still fundamentally a PC and is bound by the same limitations the rest of the market is. If your typical high-end, super expensive custom PC can barely do it, the chances they've managed to squeeze that kind of power into a comparatively tiny case and a system based around an integrated APU is less than zero. You wouldn't even be able to adequately watercool something like that because the radiator would be a tiny thin strip of nothing with virtually no active cooling - the system would burn itself up.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 10:32:27 am by insektmute »

gf78

Re: PS4K
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 10:55:26 am »
I'm not concerned in the slightest about this.  It's not going to hamper games being released in any way, nor do I see it providing any real upgrade to any future titles.

Sony has always pushed new media formats since the first PlayStation.  First it was CD's, then DVD's, then Blu-Ray and finally 3D.  4K is the next step and these "special" PS4's will have the extra hardware required to output 4K video.  Like it has already been pointed out, 4K gaming requires hellacious computational power that even a new "tricked-out" PS4 won't posses. 

Sony and other companies have been doing this for decades.  The original PlayStation had a variation called the Net Yaroze that connected to a PC and allowed you to program your own games on it.  This didn't have a negative impact on standard PlayStation gaming.

PlayStation 2 had the PSX variant in Japan.  This system had a DVR built into it and had features a standard PS2 couldn't replicate.  It didn't have a negative impact on PS2 gaming.

I don't see where this will do anything but cater to a small, high-end market that want the features this provides.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 11:05:28 am by gf78 »
Currently playing:  Last of Us Part II Remastered, Cyberpunk 2077 Ultimate Edition
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rayne315

Re: PS4K
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 01:03:20 pm »
Quote
I don't really understand the point of doing this as I'm pretty positive that 4K isn't a thing yet.  Isn't it still at that mid to higher tier in consumer pricing? Looking at Best Buy, the name brand stuff for their cheapest and smallest, such as Sony is like 900 bucks for a 40" TV.  Most people don't have one, so why center your console around it now, directly affecting new games being made?

One very important thing to remember is that sony is NOT just a game maker, they do a whole host of electronics one of which is TV's. I see this move as a future outlook. not only will it extend the lifespan of the ps4, it will create more demand for 4K TV's that sony makes, increase the profit margin for PSVR by making the external processing unit (hopefully) unnecessary, and help increase total units sold for the PS4 as it will bring more on the fence gamers to purchase a ps4 instead of Xbone or Wii U or Jones conscious people to upgrade from their existing ps4 to the PS4K. also the fact that we are barely even half way through the console generation, updates keep interest. just look back through the Playstation generations and you will see 3+ different iterations on them all.

Quote
At first it seems like the New 3DS, and it is to a degree if Nintendo had not abandoned the idea of New 3DS exclusive games, but we saw with Hyrule Warriors Legends, they released a busted version of the game for regular 3DS owners.
Quote
The downside is that according to a verified person on Neogaf, games made with the new and improved specs, will suffer a drop in performance on original PS4 systems.

Their is already a major distinction here. with the NEW 3DS the exclusives WILL NOT work on the normal 3DS by the sounds of it the PS4K games will also be able to run on normal PS4's just with decreased performance. so this can not be considered a NEW console just an upgrade. this will also allow ps4 games to run a whole lot better than they do naturally.

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Why do this now and not the next gen cycle when there's a greater selection of 4K owners?

as stated above To boost sales of sony brand 4K TV's, extend ps4 life, and to sell NEW units which is where their profit margin lies.

Quote
This just mostly seems like a terrible decision to take your currently very well selling system, and cut it's feet off in favor of a version that I don't think a ton of people are going to want.

I personally do not own a 4k tv nor do I plan on buying one but Price dependent I would purchase the PS4K just for that 4X+ processing power required to run 4X the pixels.

As an additional note. based on the rods and cones of the eye the optimal VR resolution is something above 4K for each eye (I will try and find the exact answer and post it here) while the optimal resolution of a tv based on distance sitting from it can be calculated here.
http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/size-to-distance-relationship

EDIT: I found the answer and it shocked me

It's been well documented that the old "one arc minute resolution" standby of those who say 300 ppi at one foot is enough is, in fact, just wrong. Even if it were right (which it's not) experts differ over whether the comfortable field of view ranges form 60 degrees to 90 degrees. Even at the incorrect one arc minute that's 3600 to 5400 horizontal pixels in the field of view -- a lot more than the 1920 horizontal count or 1080p.

Also it's been well document that line widths (at extremely high resolution) can be seen at much, much less than that one arc minute. Some tests even show a truly black line that is less than 1/4th arc minute can be seen on a white background.

Then there's vernier resolution. Take two black lines at sub one arc minute and put them end to end then offset their ends by 0.1 arc minute. Many people can see that offset.

Then there's rotational perception. Take a circle that is done in black on a white background with the circle done with a line of one or more arc seconds. Then put a one arc second gap in it. Then rotate it slightly. Many, many people can see the gap change in position even if that movement is well under one arc minute -- some can see a motion as little as 0.1 arc minute.

The list of higher order perceptions goes on and on.

So if you were to build the "ultimate" screen what resolution would it be?

Well if you take that 90 degree field of view 5400 horizontal pixel screen and go to the 10 to 1 limit of some of the higher order perceptible aspects then you'd need at least a horizontal pixel count of 54,000 pixels. To be really certain to get beyond those odd few with "20/10" eyesight (I worked with one of these people a few years back) you'd need to double that -- 108,000 horizontal pixels.

So when do I expect to see my 54,000 x 108,000 pixel screen (so that I can't, in any way, tell it from a reality [ignoring 3D effects])? I'm guessing not in my lifetime.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 01:42:58 pm by rayne315 »
PS2 Palooza: 8/2XXX games finished
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XIII
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maximo310

Re: PS4K
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 04:03:00 pm »
I wanna see what kind of specs they are going to put inside this new sony4k machine.  I'm guessing that they'd be targeting 4k at 30 fps for the majority of games for their systems which is going to require a huge power increase, but I'm not too sure what the price point is going to be for a system like that; I'm guessing they'll price it at $500 or higher. It may be higher, considering even some high powered graphics cards from a couple of years ago still struggle with 4k content.

It just feels like a stopgap measure at best, and one thats going to have quite a bit of compromises if they can hope to achieve 4k; I just don't see it really being something worth buying if they are just going to use the same system design as the original PS4.

abe

Re: PS4K
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2016, 06:58:36 pm »
I wanna see what kind of specs they are going to put inside this new sony4k machine.  I'm guessing that they'd be targeting 4k at 30 fps for the majority of games for their systems which is going to require a huge power increase, but I'm not too sure what the price point is going to be for a system like that; I'm guessing they'll price it at $500 or higher. It may be higher, considering even some high powered graphics cards from a couple of years ago still struggle with 4k content.

According to a Gematsu article it's supposed to be priced at $399, but they do mention that it could have gone as high as $500.

http://gematsu.com/2016/03/rumor-ps4-5-twice-powerful-gpu-deep-down-god-war-4-among-launch-titles
Currently playing: Persona 5 (PS4)

maximo310

Re: PS4K
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2016, 07:28:26 pm »
I wanna see what kind of specs they are going to put inside this new sony4k machine.  I'm guessing that they'd be targeting 4k at 30 fps for the majority of games for their systems which is going to require a huge power increase, but I'm not too sure what the price point is going to be for a system like that; I'm guessing they'll price it at $500 or higher. It may be higher, considering even some high powered graphics cards from a couple of years ago still struggle with 4k content.

According to a Gematsu article it's supposed to be priced at $399, but they do mention that it could have gone as high as $500.

http://gematsu.com/2016/03/rumor-ps4-5-twice-powerful-gpu-deep-down-god-war-4-among-launch-titles
Yeah, if its at $399, I'm going to still hold my breath of that one and wait for actual gameplay demonstrations with the new console.  I haven't seen any hardware setups currently priced at $400 that can hit 4k easily at a 30fps rate, so my guess is that they may use upscaling from 1080/1440p to 4k, just to satisfy the lower power requirements.

spac316

Re: PS4K
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2016, 10:55:40 pm »
I guess that means I'll have to wait a little longer to finally get mine. I hope this will be the ONLY upgrade.

abe

Re: PS4K
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2016, 08:37:01 am »
According to recent rumors, all PS4 games in the future will be required to be playable on both the old and new PS4, and no exclusive content will be allowed for the new PS4 aside from better performance. At least this means we shouldn't have to worry about missing out on exclusives if we don't want to buy the new PS4.
Currently playing: Persona 5 (PS4)

spac316

Re: PS4K
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2016, 02:50:13 pm »
I think Sony should make a trade program if people want to replace their old PS4 for the upgraded one at a discounted price. Transfer over their data and send them out.

I kind of wonder if those with the Neo would have some kind of advantage against those with the original base PS4.