Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)

[kamikazekeeg]

If not clear enough, this thread is just for people who have watched the movie, know its secrets, and want to talk about it.  So all the spoilers, don't get spoiled, SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS.

As this was brought up due to wanting clarification on opposing views on the movie, I'll start it off with the only serious complaint I had with the movie, and that is Finn and Rose.  This section of the movie when they go to that planet to find the code breaker goes on way too long.  It's all very unimportant to the overall plot and really the whole plot line leads to nothing as the shady code breaker turns out to be shady, and actually end up ruining the escape plan.  I could see it as an idea of good intentions gone wrong, but it's like if that wasn't gonna pan out anyways, they should've shortened it up.  I know it was to create more time to build up the weird Rose/Finn relationship that doesn't work, even if they work well off each other, but it's kinda the low point of the plot and just seemed like a way to get Finn to do something.  I mean come on, she falls in love with him in under literally 24 hours? Meh.

The other minor complaint I have is why was the escape plan seemingly kept secret, leading to Po committing mutiny, because he wasn't told how the plan worked?  It makes no sense.

Otherwise I'd like to know what people who didn't like the movie thought.  I'm frankly baffled by anyone who says there was anything in this that was worse than the Prequels.  BikingJahuty brought it up in the other thread, I've seen comments in a review say it, and I want to see if anyone else shares this view and if they can actually justify it.  I know what the complaints likely are, dealing with Snoke, Finn/Rose, Rey's parents, and some pacing/plot, I can see where they could rub people wrong, though I think most of it still works, but I think objectively, there's no way this film as a whole or any of its parts, make it worse than anything in those movies.  It's better acted, better visuals, some frankly downright incredible scenes, there's a lot that works...

You look at Jar Jar, and you say to me with a straight face, that something in this movie, is worse than him.  I DARE YOU!

[bikingjahuty]

So I began writing my assessment of The Last Jedi, when I got about two paragraphs in and quickly realized how difficult it was for me to articulate what I even liked or did not like about it. There were definitely parts that I loved, but almost in equal measure, things I hated about these same parts. And these aren't just unimportant parts, no, these are major parts in the movie such as the Snoke/Rey/Kylo confrontation in Snoke's throne room, Rey's "training" with Luke on Octu, the whole "we're running out of fuel and time" ship chase, and the final confrontation between Kylo and Luke. What I find funny is that the whole subplot with Fin and Rose is that it's something that bothered me far less than how much it seems to bother others, but I still understand why people really don't like it.

When I read the comments of people online about The Last Jedi, both positive and negative, I seem to agree with them and they resonate with me, even when these opinions are at odds with one another. Unless I am forgetting something I don't think I've been this at odds with or confused about how I felt about a movie ever. My point is that I really need to let this movie sink in and process more, as well as rewatch it again without the hype and super high expectations I went in with. Until then I will suspend my thorough analysis and opinion of this movie.

[kamikazekeeg]

So I began writing my assessment of The Last Jedi, when I got about two paragraphs in and quickly realized how difficult it was for me to articulate what I even liked or did not like about it. There were definitely parts that I loved, but almost in equal measure, things I hated about these same parts. And these aren't just unimportant parts, no, these are major parts in the movie such as the Snoke/Rey/Kylo confrontation in Snoke's throne room, Rey's "training" with Luke on Octu, the whole "we're running out of fuel and time" ship chase, and the final confrontation between Kylo and Luke. What I find funny is that the whole subplot with Fin and Rose is that it's something that bothered me far less than how much it seems to bother others, but I still understand why people really don't like it.

When I read the comments of people online about The Last Jedi, both positive and negative, I seem to agree with them and they resonate with me, even when these opinions are at odds with one another. Unless I am forgetting something I don't think I've been this at odds with or confused about how I felt about a movie ever. My point is that I really need to let this movie sink in and process more, as well as rewatch it again without the hype and super high expectations I went in with. Until then I will suspend my thorough analysis and opinion of this movie.

That's totally cool.  Didn't mean to make it feel like I was putting you on the spot if it came off that way, I was just overall very curious to see opposing views on the movie.  When I see it again, I'll be going in with a little less hype and I'm curious to see how it holds up, to see if it still works as well as it did with the first showing.

I do think the reaction from people comes a lot from fan theory and expectations.  People had built up Snoke and Rey's parents so much, that when it took a swerve, people were really broken by it.  Definitely take a look at how it works within the plot, because I think it's really pretty good and is a great way to separate it from simply following the path of the old Trilogy, which was a big complaint of The Force Awakens for people.

[bikingjahuty]

I talked about this movie A LOT with various various people throughout today and being able to talk with them and articulate how I felt and see my own feelings in their opinions on the Last Jedi really helped me hone in on how I really feel about this movie. But before I get into that, I still stand by my statement that I won't be able to fully describe how I feel about this movie in relation to the whole franchise until this movie has been out for a while and I've rewatched it, probably more than once. I did the same thing with Force Awakens which I had a very positive reaction too when I saw it, but it wasn't until probably last summer when I felt comfortable calling it the third best Star Wars film I've seen. But anyhow, here is my current feelings about The Last Jedi.

Overall, I really did not like this movie. My biggest complaint is how this movie was essentially the undoing of everything that the Force Awakens set up as being important and interesting and either destroyed it, trivialized it, or ignored it. I'll start with Snoke. Snoke was a very enigmatic character and obviously someone of great importance since he was the "Supreme Leader" of the First Order. I wanted to know who he was, what he was capable of, and how he became the leader of the First Order. The Last Jedi showed us a little bit of his power, but ignored everything else and just killed him, mind you in a very poorly written way. He was surrounded by his guards who didn't notice a lightsaber rotating on its own to ignite right into him. Worse than that, he just got done saying how he knew Kylo Ren's mind like a map, and even manipulated him and Rey into communicating and wanting to meet again. Yet, he seemed to be completely oblivious to Ren's ambition to overthrow him which led to his death. Essentially whoever Snoke was or wasn't doesn't matter now because he's fucking dead.

My other huge complaint on how this movie shit all over the Force Awakens and the interesting things it set up to be answered and explained in future films was Rey's unnaturally force abilities and the fact that she seems perfect at everything. I always hated the Mary Sue arguments that people made about The Force Awakens and this movie did nothing to address this, in fact it pretty much established she is just a Mary Sue for reasons. Part of this was the movie's explaination of her parents, which I feel like the jury is still out on, but it wouldn't surprise me if what Kylo was telling her was the truth and her parents were just junkies that sold her for their next fix. I will fully admit I was hoping Rey's parents were some important, established characters, or that she was born of the force like Anakin, but saying her parents were nobodies was incredibly unsatisfying and didn't explain anything about why she is so powerful. Before I movie on, I also wanted to say how ridiculous it was that Rey, whom weeks ago never even knew what the force was nor had ever used a lightsaber is able to best Luke in a duel and also train to the point where she is taking down Pretorean guards and going toe to toe with Kylo. It really diminished the quality of her character which is a damn shame because she was my favorite Star Wars character leading up to this movie.

My other major complaint about this movie was its poor writing and how it handled nearly every character in this movie. I already talked about Rey, but I feel like a character that suffered equally was Kylo going from a very complex, flawed and conflicted antagonist to generic bad guy. They turned Poe from a heroic pilot to a cocky, impulsive teenager; Phasma might as well have not been in the film, I already talked about Snoke, Finn and Rose were just there with no development, and so on. The only character that seemed to go anywhere was Leia who I thought was done well in this movie. And then there is Luke.

I really liked how they turned Luke into a broken down, burned out hermit who wanted nothing to do with anyone, especially with training Rey, however my issue with him had less to do with his character in this film, but more what was done to his character. His death particularly was extremely unsatisfying as it seemed that he simply died because he got tired after doing his force projection, making him the only Star Wars character ever to die from using too much force. If he was just going to die anyways I would have much rather him use the X-Wing that is shown submerged next to his island to have actually gone to that salt planet at the end and actually fight Kylo in person instead of being a hologram that dodged laser blasts and lightsabers. I know this was to buy the resistance time to escape, but I feel like this scene could have been way better and it would have been more emotional and impactful for Luke to die in combat with his former student than to die from exhaustion half way across the galaxy. I also hated how all they showed of him and why him and Kylo had their falling out was a brief scene that they showed thee times with only slight variations each time. I also thought it was stupid how Luke, who had matured and grown so much in the original trilogy and would never contemplate just killing someone because they showed signs of going to the dark side, tried doing it and to his nephew especially. For the love of god he tried turning Vader back to the light after Vader had spent the last 20 years killing countless people and enslaving the galaxy for the empire. WTF....

I could go on and on, but these are by far my biggest gripes about this movie. And to be honest I didn't hate the movie, and during the long run time I felt entertained for most of it, but unfortunately this movie was incredibly shallow as if it were a Michael Bay Transformers movie rather than a Star Wars movie. It was just mindless, shallow entertainment for the most part that used its source material to get some good reactions throughout, but coupled with almost every good thing about this movie was it being flat out taken from you or revealed it wasn't as good as you thought it was. This movie was a freakin bomb that not only was not great on it's own, but damaged some of the other Star Wars movies as well do to its disrespect and lack of understanding of the source material before it.

I want to rewatch this movie soon and maybe see something about it I missed and will dramatically improve my opinion of it, but as is it is currently competing with Attack of the Clones as the worst Star Wars movie I've ever seen.

[kamikazekeeg]

I agree that we did need more on Snoke, but I think his death was pretty well done.  Snoke was essentially a red herring.  He was the puppet behind turning Kylo Ren, but this story is very much about the problems of Masters, of Jedi and Sith, and we see how Luke failed his student, which lead to him turning, and Snoke being a Sith, is just there to treat Kylo like crap all the time.  Kylo's conflicted ideas is what leads him to turn on Snoke and I think goes to show that Snoke was just being far too overconfident, much like Luke who thought he could bring the Jedi back, before getting a dose of realism that the ways of the old Jedi just don't work and their overconfidence lead to their downfall, as seen with the Prequels.  This story isn't about Snoke and his plans for the galaxy, it's about Kylo Ren's rise and what I assume will be his fall.  The good thing about a trilogy, is that I feel like they could start the opening of the next one with Kylo's involvement with Snoke, explain him a little more and fill in the missing gap pretty easily.

I couldn't disagree anymore with you on Rey.  I think her use in the movie is great also.  She's anything, but a Mary Sue.  She makes mistakes, she's inexperienced, she gets drawn in by Snoke's trap, she's barely making it by in the Praetorian Guard battle, she's a useless rag doll in comparison to Snoke, she's clearly a natural with the force, but not enough to beat Kylo.  I brought this up before, that while people expected differently, her parents reveal is actually well done in terms of the story and her character development.  Sure, it was made to seem like a big deal, but in terms of the story itself, the idea that as a young girl, she was so distraught by the trauma of being abandoned by her parents, that she created a fantasy that her parents had just left her behind for some mysterious reason, makes a lot of sense.  This kind of thing really happens.  I can understand the disappointment that she wasn't a Skywalker, or Solo, or force baby or whatever fans thought up, but in terms of what this story delivered, it's really well done and I think almost works to turn her when Kylo is wanting both of them to join up as a way to deal with their problems.  As a character moment, it's great.  That it wasn't something crazy important, to me, shouldn't be considered a big negative.

As for Luke, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but the reveal that he wasn't actually on the planet is amazing.  I see him dying being a mixture of things.  He's old, worn down, there's no way he could fight Kylo, he couldn't even fight Rey (Which her abilities came from what she taught herself with her metal pole back on Jakku, and natural force strength, with that being her weapon training, so that works), and that he probably doesn't WANT to fight Kylo, so he uses his immense force powers for one last thing to help try and redeem himself, which is to help the resistance, and say goodbye to his former pupil with the knowledge that the Jedi will live on in Rey at least.  The sheer strain of what he did, which is a crazy cool ability that I think makes plenty of sense in the Force, combined with the relief, let him give himself to the Force, exactly like Obi-Wan did. 

But there are some issues with the other plots, I can agree there, though I think it's mostly just a problem with Finn/Rose and their section with the code breaker.  That whole thing needed to be reworked and I feel like it could've been done more easily if it was just Poe, Finn, and Rose sneaking aboard Snokes ship to take out the tracker, cutting out the other planet trip entirely.

I feel like after setting aside actual issues in the movie with a few parts, it comes down not to an issue with a movie in particular, but an issue with expectations.  The story not coming together how you thought it might doesn't make it a bad movie.  With another watch, perhaps try to look at the story again from what they are wanting to offer, see if that shifts things.  Maybe your view might change, maybe not, but I think there's a lot of good in this movie.

[Flashback2012]

*SNIP*

We just got back from seeing this and you hit every nail on the head. It was clearly Star Wars: The Numerous Plot Holes or How Can We Redo Empire Strikes Back In A Jumbled Order But Longer and More Bleak.

The whole Snoke thing irked me to no end. ZERO explanation of how he came to be, he shows off a level of badassery that even the Emperor didn't seem to have and all for naught as he's taken out in the most chump way possible to advance Kylo Ren along. The fact that he let Hux live and Hux's downturn look in the base basically ensures in IX that he'll screw over Kylo at a critical point before getting snuffed out. I agree on Phasma in that she was basically shoehorned in the movie and probably will be again in IX.

I think it would have made better sense to call the movie "The Last of the Jedi" as "The Last Jedi" implies that a singular entity and yet you have at least two still.  It seemed odd to me that they'd let Luke fade away with Carrie Fisher passing but I suppose she'll die off early in IX so that only Chewie and the droids are the only hold overs from the old series (and Nien Nunb too!). I'm really surprised that there's no Lando at all in this series. Shame about Ackbar, no more "It's a trap!" 

Meh. I'm going to have to redo my ordering of movies now. For some reason this one pushes Rogue One up higher as it felt more like a Star Wars film than this one and this one had the actual main characters! 

Anyway...

Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Rogue One
Star Wars
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace

[hexen]

I gave up after Disney's™ Star Wars™ The Force Awakens™ was just a lame New Hope rip-off that people ate up because of the title and people on Twitter called you a racist/sexist if you made any criticism towards it. It and Rogue One where just calculated money-making products that I doubt anyone really cared about telling a new story and just milking nostalgia. At least George Lucas tried something new with the prequels even if it was crap and he's a complete and utter fraud who gets all the recognition for other people's movie-making skills!

Since I am not going to see this one I read all the spoilers and I look positively on the fact this seems to actually try to tell a new story. Snoke getting bitchslapped without any kind explanation about him sounds really dumb. Watching the focus-group diversity pals go on a pointless adventure sounds like it would be a massive chore... is this part really longer then the actual Star Wars stuff?

I dunno... maybe I'll watch it when it's on TV, but not giving them money for this is something I feel good about doing. My 10 bucks will matter among the 50 billion they'll pull in, afterall. At least going to any discussion of the movie is fun watching the shitshow.

[turf]

I liked The Last Jedi.  It's a good flick.   
I do have a couple complaints.  Superman Leia, the whole code breaker part, and Rose.  That's a dumb character.

[desocietas]

I saw The Last Jedi on Saturday, and am by no means any sort of Star Wars fan. I know the names of most characters and don't have any attachment to the series as a whole, so just wanted to preface where my thoughts come from.

Rose: I wanted to like her. Appreciated that she's not a typical "look" for a possible love interest role, and the kiss, while cliché, mostly came from her getting the chance to play a hero saving who she and her sister considered a hero.

Rose/Finn: Her interest in him may have appeared to come up too quickly but she knew about his story a while before she met him. Totally agree though that the their whole subplot (felt like a way to show off a cantina-like scene) felt deflated at the end because it meant totally nothing and actually resulted in causing MORE death on the rebel's side. Had they not gone, they would've never gotten betrayed.

Kylo: I felt opposite of bikingjahuty's comments. I thought Kylo was generic and 1-dimensional in Force Awakens and appreciated that his emotions were a little more fleshed out and developed. Maybe because he didn't have his silly helmet on the whole time. I knew his connection with Rey was a ruse of sorts, but I still appreciated the interactions between them. Made him feel more human.

Rey: Her character was a bit all over the place. Naive, but in a frustrating way, and I agree that her powers seemed disproportionate to the timespan and what we saw in TFA. I didn't know anything about people's expectations about her parents until after I saw the movie, but it didn't bother me at all. I figured she was a nobody and that the writers were trying to say that the powers can exist in literally *anybody* (they tried to hit us on the head with that silly Disney scene with the stableboy). I honestly would've been a little disappointed if they said she had some fancy Jedi blood in her because it would just keep perpetuating the idea of the importance of lineage.

Flashback2012's comment about the title "The Last Jedi" got me thinking, and I'm assuming the title is referencing Luke. He wanted the order of the Jedi to be abolished and to remove the pedestal they had all been put on. Sounded like he didn't want it to be about the Jedi heroes anymore... just "heroes."

Anyway, just some thoughts from someone who didn't have any real expectations or hear any rumors leading up to the film (outside of Luke dying). Oh, and I agree that his collapse was a little disappointing, though the reveal of him having projected himself for that fight was actually pretty cool imo.

[bikingjahuty]

I've decided to not spend money on seeing this movie in the theater again. In fact, I won't be buying the bluray or DVD of the Last Jedi until I find it used somewhere. I do not want to support this movie or Rian Johnson being behind anything else Star Wars. I still hope I see more in this film that will make me like it more, but the more time that goes by, the more I hate what I watched last Thursday.

[DreamsDied13101]

Agree with most of what Bikingjahuty wrote.

What irks me the most about this movie was Rian's idea that the "Jedi must die". He did his best to create a film that erases anything important about the last seven episode films and relishes in the dumping of it. Destroys Kylo's mask because "he is no Vader". Proves that only fools rush in as heroes and save the day when he sabotages Poe's character, and makes Luke a washed up Jedi that contemplated murder. He doesn't even have the courage to say goodbye to his sister in person and face Kylo after the mistake he made. Finn needed to be shown how much of a selfish brute he was and that he had no understanding of love even though that was what he learned already in Force Awakens.

We are given a glimpse of Kylo and Rey both being very open to both sides of the Force, but with no pay off or lingering questions. Imagine if the film ended with Kylo offering Rey to take his hand and rule and Rey hesitates. It would put people in the seats for part nine. Imagine if Rey was the twin born to Han and Leia and she finds out in Snoke's throne room which makes the decision harder since she feels so alone. Kylo could have been the one to save Leia in space which would make me as a viewer wonder if he could turn good, or at least shock me more when in a final moment he turns on Rey and wounds her. The original film were amazing because there were heroes, betrayals, twists, and shocks. Last Jedi was fan fiction sold to me for a $10 ticket price.

They should have used Lucas' outline for the new trilogy and written some amazing screenplays. The overall stories have always worked and Lucas has been able to get some good screenplays written from them even if you hate his dialogue choices and movies the overall story has always worked for me.

Oh and the milking of the manatee sitting upright like a human with nasty nipples was disturbing. Especially how Luke looked at Rey like a pedophile while chugging it letting it slosh down his beard and chin like a sick pervert. The light saber throwing seen and calling it a laser sword I can maybe forgive but not that disgusting joke scene of Luke milking the animal. Reminded me of the farting animal in Episode 1. I mean if they wanted to show he was living off the land they might as well showed him artificially inseminating an animal with his bare hands or having to use a toilet with no plumbing, right. Just go ahead and give us a scene where Luke is instructing Rey while on the toilet. You can hear him grunting and there would be a small window so he can give her the glare that says,  "you want to be a Jedi then you must milk the manatee beast, inseminate animals, and take nasty dumps... Look at me Rey, look at the milk pouring down me too and I'm on the potty."

[bikingjahuty]

Agree with most of what Bikingjahuty wrote.

What irks me the most about this movie was Rian's idea that the "Jedi must die". He did his best to create a film that erases anything important about the last seven episode films and relishes in the dumping of it. Destroys Kylo's mask because "he is no Vader". Proves that only fools rush in as heroes and save the day when he sabotages Poe's character, and makes Luke a washed up Jedi that contemplated murder. He doesn't even have the courage to say goodbye to his sister in person and face Kylo after the mistake he made. Finn needed to be shown how much of a selfish brute he was and that he had no understanding of love even though that was what he learned already in Force Awakens.

We are given a glimpse of Kylo and Rey both being very open to both sides of the Force, but with no pay off or lingering questions. Imagine if the film ended with Kylo offering Rey to take his hand and rule and Rey hesitates. It would put people in the seats for part nine. Imagine if Rey was the twin born to Han and Leia and she finds out in Snoke's throne room which makes the decision harder since she feels so alone. Kylo could have been the one to save Leia in space which would make me as a viewer wonder if he could turn good, or at least shock me more when in a final moment he turns on Rey and wounds her. The original film were amazing because there were heroes, betrayals, twists, and shocks. Last Jedi was fan fiction sold to me for a $10 ticket price.

They should have used Lucas' outline for the new trilogy and written some amazing screenplays. The overall stories have always worked and Lucas has been able to get some good screenplays written from them even if you hate his dialogue choices and movies the overall story has always worked for me.

Oh and the milking of the manatee sitting upright like a human with nasty nipples was disturbing. Especially how Luke looked at Rey like a pedophile while chugging it letting it slosh down his beard and chin like a sick pervert. The light saber throwing seen and calling it a laser sword I can maybe forgive but not that disgusting joke scene of Luke milking the animal. Reminded me of the farting animal in Episode 1. I mean if they wanted to show he was living off the land they might as well showed him artificially inseminating an animal with his bare hands or having to use a toilet with no plumbing, right. Just go ahead and give us a scene where Luke is instructing Rey while on the toilet. You can hear him grunting and there would be a small window so he can give her the glare that says,  "you want to be a Jedi then you must milk the manatee beast, inseminate animals, and take nasty dumps... Look at me Rey, look at the milk pouring down me too and I'm on the potty."

LMAO!!!!!


But you brought up some things I didn't even think of which make me hate this movie even more.


I just read an article where the interviewer asked Rian Johnson about the Rey's parents reveal, and he said that it was not a misdirection, and her parents are actually nobodies. Yet, 5-minutes later she lifts 500 tons of rocks with almost no effort and we are supposed to believe that it is because of reasons. She is confirmed to be a Mary Sue, which firther means the writing for The Last Jedi is shit.


Serious, fuck this movie.

[DreamsDied13101]

Based on daily comparisons Jurrasic World just caught up to Star Wars Last Jedi. Either Disney hopes that kids getting out of school will bump this movie or repeat viewings and word of mouth has slowed down the box office.

They will still make money, but if they feel they have left money on the table then they will course correct for the next film.

[DreamsDied13101]

Looks like the backlash has hit. No Repeat viewings and casual fans are not flocking to see the film for the second weekend time frame. It is starting to track well below Jurrasic World and taking a huge 60%+ drop on second weekend.

[kamikazekeeg]

I'll actually be seeing it again next week with my sister who couldn't make it to opening day.  Give me a chance to hopefully better place it alongside the other movies.  It's easily over the prequels, possibly over Rogue One, and I'll need to rewatch Force Awakens again to see where it goes with that.  Not sure if it'll end up over any of the original trilogy, though Return of the Jedi is pretty low for me.