Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)

[DreamsDied13101]

Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

[kamikazekeeg]

Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

Even under the Prequels? I rewatched them and while I know Revenge of the Sith is tolerable, those first two movies are unwatchable.  Garbage tier slop.  I don't even care if they are technically more complete stories, they did far more damage to the Star Wars brand than Last Jedi ever could.  Last Jedi at least gives us an interesting potential future and did its best to try and give us a new direction with new ideas, even though it struggled in some areas.

[bikingjahuty]

Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

Even under the Prequels? I rewatched them and while I know Revenge of the Sith is tolerable, those first two movies are unwatchable.  Garbage tier slop.  I don't even care if they are technically more complete stories, they did far more damage to the Star Wars brand than Last Jedi ever could.  Last Jedi at least gives us an interesting potential future and did its best to try and give us a new direction with new ideas, even though it struggled in some areas.

I would like to know what interesting potential future you see coming from this movie. I also would like to know why you enjoyed this movie so much too.

PS. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or an asshole; I genuinely don't want to hate this movie as much as I do and given a decent chunk of people moderately to severely enjoyed this film, so I'm trying to see where the value of this movie is. I have yet to read a compelling reason why this is a good Star Wars movie, hell even a okay one.

[kamikazekeeg]

I figure it's because I went in with no fan theory ideas.  I had maybe guessed that Rey was the daughter of someone important, but I didn't need it to be anyone specific.  I would've liked to know more about Snoke, which they could very well do in the third movie if they want to show Kylo's downfall more, seems like a good way to open the movie, but I liked that he got killed.  People liked the Emperor in the original trilogy and there wasn't anything really known about him.  He didn't even have a name in the original movies.  Him being a red herring changes up the projected path of the movie as it was originally seemingly falling in line as just a safe retread of the original trilogy, which was a criticism of Force Awakens.  Now we don't have a thing of whether Kylo might turn on the Supreme Leader for a redemption moment in the third movie, he chose his path, and in turn, the First Order/Empire isn't run by some wise, old, genius, manipulator, but a young, rage-filled, psychotic.  That's one reason I'm very interested in the next movie and hope they run with.  He's an instability in something that only functions through intense, dominating, control.

To me, the problem for a lot of people seems like they had an idea what the movie should've been and when it didn't match, it became automatically bad, rather than just going along with the story they wanted to tell. Luke, disgusted by his failure and the failure of the Jedi in the past, is also something that connects with the Sith.  Snoke was overconfident, gleefully so, he thought he had Kylo wrapped around his finger, but clearly not.  It all ties in together about the problems with the old order and issues of the past and leaving it behind or learning from it.  This actually connects with Poe who learns that being a hotshot isn't always the answer in a situation.  There might be something like that too with Finn, but I honestly need to rewatch the movie for it, because I feel it's the weakest part.

Rey's parents, while slightly underwhelming that it wasn't some crazy reveal, again works really well with the story she had.  An apparently traumatic childhood with deadbeat parents and the only way she could cope, was to think up a fantasy, try to make it something she could look up, much like she thought of the Jedi and Luke, when in reality, they were not what she originally had in mind.  It's a sad and realistic traumatic concept people have, that fits in with the overall story related to Kylo and gives great build up to the potential turn of Rey, saying she didn't need to be alone, as together they could make their own life, though clearly it went the other way. 

I also think that her being able to fight well without training isn't weird.  She was a scrappy scavenger surviving on a harsh world.  She trained herself with her pole weapon I believe, probably with underlying force power she never knew about if we think she was just naturally strong in the force.  It's not like she's dominating fights, she's barely getting through them.  I believe you brought it up, but her having power rather quickly isn't what makes her a Mary Sue and it isn't like she's doing anything crazy here and she makes regular mistakes or barely escapes in both movies so far.

And I have brought up my negatives already, mostly to do with Finn's and Poe's plots being weak and there pacing issues, but they have good aspects about them too.  This also just has some incredible scenes in it that alone make this movie better than the prequels could ever hope to be.  The opening battle is great.  I loved most everything with Luke and Rey.  I liked the Finn and Phasma fight, even if it was short and she MAYBE died.  I think we get a battle scarred Phasma showing up in the last movie.  The destruction of Snoke's ship might be the most amazing scene I've seen in scifi in awhile.  The battle against the guards with Kylo and Rey was great.  That entire finale on the planet is great.

Even if I was to accept some of the problems people have that go beyond my own.  There's a lot of genuine good in this movie that will forever make this movie better than the Prequels.

[bikingjahuty]

I don't doubt that some people hated it because of misplaced expectations, but I can say with 100% certainty that this was not my beef with the movie.

Rey's parents needed to be someone significant to explain why in a weeks time she went from not knowing anything of the force to somehow being able to lift tons of rocks that even Yoda would have struggled with. Or how she had never held a lightsaber and then a week later she is pretty much the most unstoppable badass in all the galaxy with it. None of it makes sense, and unless they reveal she is a force baby like Anakin or some force goddess, I don't see how they are going to explain her insane power which was gained in almost no time.

It isn't that I was heavily invested in her being Luke's daughter or the granddaughter of Palpatine or anything; it's just that she needs to be significant in order to explain how powerful and adept she is. If not it is beyond terrible writing and that is my problem.

In terms of other expectations such as what happened to Luke prior to his exile, who is Snoke, and everything else that was heavily speculated on, and naturally so, following TFA I went in not knowing or expecting anything in terms of answers to these questions. But it wasn't even that I didn't like the answers, they just didn't make sense or they were snuffed out after they had been built up and established in TFA. It's as if you were reading a book and some character was built up to be this crazy powerful ,important character and got an entire chapter building him up for something later in the book, but then he is never mentioned again. From a writing standpoint it doesn't make sense.

So my problems with TLJ is that the writing is just bad and all over the place, however I can't say that all of it wasn't by design though since while I cannot confirm this I feel like Johnson had a less savory agenda when writing the screenplay. I definitely get the impression there was a lot he didn't like about Star Wars, especially TFA and sought to erase or rewrite it as much as possible, even though much of it made no sense or clashed heavily with existing, established canon.

And while I do sympathize with people saying it is still better than the prequels, I can at least give the prequels credit for being well written even though the execution of that writing (directing, dialogue, acting) was flawed in some ways. They still established Anakin's rise and fall in a believable way, the republic imploding upon itself and giving rise to the empire, and the Jedi getting all but wiped out. Despite Jar Jar, despite copious CGI, despite Heiden Christianson, we still got a cohesive story that made sense and fit nicely within the Star Wars canon and lore. The Last Jedi did the exact opposite and not in a way that was either convincing or well written. I can respect the prequels for that at least if nothing else, although I will personally say that Revenge of the Sith is an excellent movie, and the other two have their merits as well (although I admittedly don't like Attack of the Clones).

Thank you for responding though.

[DreamsDied13101]

Last Jedi now holds the box office record for greatest second weekend drop. It dropped by over $150 million in its second weekend. It is now trailing Jurassic World and Avengers within a similar release frame. It is not looking good. I wonder if this means Rian's new trilogy will be scrapped.

[kamikazekeeg]

Yeah we'll just have agree to disagree on this lol

[DreamsDied13101]

Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

Even under the Prequels? I rewatched them and while I know Revenge of the Sith is tolerable, those first two movies are unwatchable.  Garbage tier slop.  I don't even care if they are technically more complete stories, they did far more damage to the Star Wars brand than Last Jedi ever could.  Last Jedi at least gives us an interesting potential future and did its best to try and give us a new direction with new ideas, even though it struggled in some areas.

I liked it less than the prequels.

I might be biased because I think I saw the theatrical re-releases of Star Wars Original Trilogy in theaters at least a handful of times for each film. I will admit that some of that was due to me and my girlfriend at least getting into heavy petting at the movie theater during the first viewings. That girl drained my wallet dry because I could only think with my lower brain as a teenager.

When Episode I came out I was older and wiser and learned not to take girlfriends to the movies and instead engage in strip Super Smash Bros Melee competition back at my place. I was therefore able to see the prequels with full attention and be able to fully embrace my Natalie Portman crush. I saw Episode I probably 10-15 times. The others at least a handful each. They were no way perfect, but I had been wanting to know how Annakin became Darth Vader for 20 years at that point. I was so excited.  General Grievous was a bust like Boba Fett, floating fruit, and gritty sand irritating my viewing experiences was hard to endure, but each film told the story I had been dying to know.

The Last Jedi didn't answer any dying questions, it actually ruined Phasma more, ruined Snoke, made Finn terrible, made Kylo less appealing, ruined Luke, made Leia and Rey the supreme Jedis of all time. They would have kicked Yoda's ass with no proper training.  Weak Jedis have to close their eyes and concentrate to lift an X-Wing out of a swamp. Just smile and lift boulders out of the way for your Rebel buddies.

Biggest issue that plagues this new trilogy is that no one has written out a game plan. This reminds me of being a kid and my friends and I would start writing a story and hand off the paper every page or so to someone new and see how zany it came out to be in the end. This is the new standard for Star Wars. Even in comic books you finish a story arc before moving on to a new writer. It is like Kathleen Kennedy has no idea what she is doing.

[bikingjahuty]

Last Jedi now holds the box office record for greatest second weekend drop. It dropped by over $150 million in its second weekend. It is now trailing Jurassic World and Avengers within a similar release frame. It is not looking good. I wonder if this means Rian's new trilogy will be scrapped.

God, I freakin hope so! If this man gets his own trilogy I may have to be one of those people that pretends that Star Wars stopped at a certain point. Some people did this with the Original Trilogy after the prequels came out, and some people even did this once they saw Episode VII. I really hope Disney is looking at the metacritic scores and comments online, however we all know that they look at the money the most. I hope this movie vastly under performs, even compared to Rogue One. Rian Johnson can never be allowed near a Star Wars movie again.

[DreamsDied13101]

What makes this tough for me is that I probably would have even enjoyed the movie with all of the issues if it was just a sci-fi blockbuster action film. It only falls short because it is a sequel and it is part of an established universe and it doesn't follow through with 40 years of consistent storytelling. It would have been more palatable to me if it was even a stand alone film like Rogue One or Solo, but as an "episode" it feels it should stay tonally consistent with the rest of the films and not all of a sudden having Poe crack your mom jokes, campy gags, and character assassinations.

[kamikazekeeg]

Saying there were character assassinations really doesn't make a lot of sense.  Everyone in the movie grows and becomes better, short of like the bad guys, not including Kylo.

An interesting article with Mark Hamill actually would agree with those that don't like Luke.  He doesn't think this is what Luke would do, that he couldn't act as good as he did, thinking it was Luke, so he had to try and act like someone similar, but different, which goes to show how good of an actor he can be with how he nails the performance.  It's of course a hard thing to say that the person who has portrayed Luke multiple times doesn't really get the character or story, but I think this is an instance of Hamill possibly putting too much into Luke that isn't there, which funny enough, fits into the movies plot very specifically.

He says that Jedi never give up, and that Luke would never give up, but I don't know how he reconciles that with Obi-Wan and Yoda.  They gave up.  They became hermits and basically were resigned to live out their days in the middle of nowhere.  Luke knows their history, he knows of the problems of the Jedi, realizing he essentially committed the same wrongs they've done.  Luke I'd say has a direct comparison to Obi-Wan.  Obi-Wan didn't realize what was happening to Anakin, that he was being manipulated by Palpatine, and when Anakin turned, it broke him.  EXACTLY what happened to Luke.  He broke, only for a moment, but it was still enough to be broken by it.  Also gotta keep this in mind, but Luke was 23 by the end of Return of the Jedi.  We've been away from Luke longer than he was alive in the original trilogy.  That's a long damn time for someone to mature and change, especially going through a disturbing and tragic moment, and I think Hamill has probably built up Luke his own personal way, because he has a sincere attachment to one of his most well known characters.  It's not that he's wrong, but I think he sees Luke in one path he would've gone down, while Last Jedi took the left at the fork, and that's how we get Luke as he is in the movie and it's wonderfully well done.

In this story told, he makes absolute, perfect, sense.  He's the Obi-Wan/Yoda of the movie.  I don't see how he doesn't work.

[DreamsDied13101]

I'll admit that I could be a little harsh on things when Lucas originally created a storyline where Darth Vader's children are "hidden" away by calling one of them Luke Skywalker and hiding him on the planet with known family.

[theflea]

I overall liked Last Jedi, but the main part I hated and think should have been cut was is the Finn/Rose side quest.
It was like something out of the prequels. I also thought the humor was off in this movie. Not the normal light Star Wars style humor.
I also thought the whole "mutiny" part was kinda silly, (why keep it a secret from the crew?)
Also I think Ackbar should have been the one to sacrifice himself going to lightspeed then unknown purple hair lady.

Superman Leia didn't bother me like most people because I feel if Carrie Fisher didn't die her part might have been a bigger role in Episode 9 where she shows she is stronger with the force and she might have even confronted Kylo. They said they didn't want to change her role in Last Jedi because it was Carrie's last role. It's a shame that Leia's story will not be finished on film in Episode 9. She will most likely just be a note in the opening crawl that Leia died and maybe it brings the rebel's back and stronger.

The film was poorly written and it had so many moments of "Well that could have been cut and no one would have cared."
It really needed a another writer to go over it and tighten up the loose ends. They have 6 hours of fuel but there's time to fly to another planet and find a code breaker? Meanwhile Luke and Ray goes though a few days. Maybe the days are super short on that planet. lol
They could have tightened the script easy by making there a spy on the ship, now there's a reason not telling Poe the plan and lose the tracking through lightspeed plotline that went nowhere anyway. Maybe Finn is a suspect because he used to be a stormtrooper and he and Rose help to find the spy. Maybe its DJ who works on the rebel ship or maybe it's another character (purple haired commander?)

As for the other complaints I hear, Snoke dying. Ya he kinda became a waste of a character. I kinda wanted to hear more of a backstory of why he was there but overall I never liked Snoke in the first place, I was hoping he was Darth Plagueus so the films went full circle and he was behind Ray being dumped on Jaku.

As for Ray's Parents being nobody's, I still think there might be more to this, Kylo could be lying or she's a clone with mixed DNA from Luke, Anaken, Kenobi and other Jedi. If this is true (not saying it is) then it would close a plot hole about why she knows how to use Force so well and took to the Falcon so well because of memory's deep in her DNA. But again I hoping Snoke was behind this but now he's dead It feels like it won't work in the movies now. The Episode films where always supposed to be about the Skywalker bloodline, Once Kylo is dead the Skywalker bloodline ends.
I'm not real upset shes from nothing, just feels like sloppy writing that shes good with the force with no training.

Captain Phasma was again a waste, she did nothing and "died" like an idiot. I have a feeling she'll come back in 9.
The Porgs where meh, Again could have been cut and no one would have cared. Just there to sell toys.
Luke Dying in the end I pretty much predicted. I think the movies would have been, Ep7 was Han's movie, Ep8 was Luke's movie, and Ep9 would have been Leia's movie, but Carrie had to leave us to early. 

As for the positive, I loved Luke and Ray for the most part, just wish there was more training then one meditation. Loved the look of the movie (except the casino planet) I loved how Luke played with Kylo in the end, but would have liked to have seen a better Lightsaber Fight. I liked how they fit in Yoda.
I liked how the rebels are beaten down to next to nothing and barely escaped. I also felt there was a missed moment where Finn could have taken out several walkers buy harpooning the Laser Ram and turning it into the legs of the AT-ATs as it fires, but no instead we get Rose saving him from sacrificing himself and somehow he runs back to the base in time. It's a shame, I liked Finn in Ep7, but this movie made me wish he did die. (I liked the movie but there is just so many stupid parts) The movie was very entertaining, just sloppy.

[bikingjahuty]

The recent Solo trailer as well as something else that I won't reveal on here yet has resulted in me refocusing on the Star Wars franchise, which also means refocusing on my disdain and disappointment in The Last Jedi. Since The Last Jedi came out, many people, including myself, have had time to fully process the film and really decide where they stand. I too have moved on, not just my stance on The Last Jedi, but on the future of the Star Wars franchise as a whole.

Before I get to where I am right now in regards to Star Wars, the reason I keep coming back to The Last Jedi and Star Wars all the time in Off Topic is because I love this franchise, and like many others this franchise means way more to me than just some entertaining scifi series. Star Wars, at least the original trilogy, is timeless, able to suck people in and make them become enchanted with it despite being born years after the original trilogy was released. My first exposure to Star Wars was likely in 1991 or 1992, when I watched the original trilogy on VHS after my dad had purchased the recent VHS release of the trilogy around this time. I would watch these movies over and over again, never tiring of them. This has not changed, and has even expanded to the prequels, well mostly. I have also played many of the video games, bought thousands of dollars in merchandise, and read many of the books over the years. I adore this franchise and will for the rest of my life. However, the TLJ is the only thing I've encountered in this franchise which may end that, at least me being able to celebrate anything released after Disney acquired the franchise.

As I mentioned above, many of us have been able to process how we really feel about The Last Jedi now that it is going on 2-months of being out. Many videos explaining both why this movie is terrible and why it is great have come out, but no video or videos has even come close to explaining this movie as objectively as the following three which are part of a series. Combined, it is around a 6-hour analysis of the entire film, plus supporting content to back up other assertions. 6-hours is a lot of time, but I promise it is totally worth it if you want by far the most in depth analysis of The Last Jedi. They are linked below:

part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk
part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC4L6lNoc
part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnMMzqjYGw

As I said, these videos are very well done and a highly objective analysis of the plot, writing, scenes, and direction of The Last Jedi. In summary of all three videos; The Last Jedi is by far the worst, most poorly written, most disasterous film in the Star Wars franchise and even in its own right is a terrible movie all together. While this is essentially how I felt less than a week after viewing The Last Jedi, these videos bring up many points I never thought about and also helped me hone in on exactly why I despise this movie and why it left such a terrible taste in my mouth. The Last Jedi has ruined The Force Awakens, but even worse has attempted to even ruin the original trilogy via character assassination of its most important and beloved characters.

My stance on The Last Jedi was that I would always hate it, but I'd see how things panned out in episode IX, hoping that it might frame The Last Jedi in a different ways, adding relevance and explaining things that The Last Jedi failed to do, as well as redeeming the whole storyline of the sequel trilogy, while also giving The Force Awakens relevance again. I now realize that The Last Jedi is so broken and so far gone in terms of a "story" as well as how badly it has damaged the Star Wars franchise that other than JJ Abrams and Disney flat out retconing The Last Jedi, nothing can save Star Wars from this point on. It has literally destroyed the franchise.

Before people decide to state how I'm being overly dramatic about this, I'd recommend you watch these videos and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. And just to provide a brief context, no, this has nothing to do with Rey's parents, Snoke, Luke dying at the end, or anything related to what happens in The Last Jedi, but rather what it does to the entire mythos and world of Star Wars, which creates massive problems for the whole franchise, both past and future. The only way Star Wars can go forward at this point and be the series that we all love is to write off The Last Jedi, which I am 99.99% certain Disney will not do.

With all that said, unless The Last Jedi is completely retconned I will be refusing to acknowledge or accept any Star Wars material or content created post Lucas Films being sold off to Disney. This includes Rogue One as well, which was a pretty good movie and didn't do anything to damage the Star Wars universe, but sadly I'd rather have the consistency of the old EU than to have that as a reminder of "what could have happened." And while I was thinking about seeing Solo in the theater, I honestly have no intention of seeing it now, and will only watch it for free or if I find the DVD/Blu Ray used someday; I do not want to give Disney one cent until they have made the decision to fix the mess that The Last Jedi left behind, which I honestly will not be holding my breath for. I will also not be seeing episode IX in theaters opening day or even probably opening week. Unless I read, from actual fans, that this movie fixes everything The Last Jedi broke I will remain firm on not giving Disney any of my money.

I may have thought it to be ridiculous originally, but now I am sold on the severe damage The Last Jedi has inflicted on all of Star Wars. I am severely saddened by this and while I do have the consolation of a much more developed and quality EU to fall back on, as well as the first six films, it still is a real shame. Here's hoping hell freezes and Disney actually can admit they fucked up Star Wars with the last installment in the series and will actually try and fix it rather than pretend like they're actually trying to make quality movies.

[kamikazekeeg]

I'll give the analysis a look, but I don't expect it to change my view much.  What I like, I still like, which is more than what I don't like about the movie.  It is flawed for sure, but again, I'll never think of it worse than Episode 1 and 2.  Even if I admitted it was bad, it is still less of a bore and waste of my time than those miserable prequels.  That's a permanent, never shifting, take from me.

But that's all your opinion there and I can respect it.  I'll disagree for sure, but I think I've read enough to know we won't see eye to eye on this as I think the franchise will be fine.  Even if this trilogy doesn't pan out, there are still two other trilogies and whatever other spinoffs planned.  If the Prequels didn't kill Star Wars, then the Last Jedi won't kill Star Wars.