Author Topic: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games  (Read 862 times)

tripredacus

Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« on: December 04, 2020, 11:31:57 am »
Poll is Live: https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,11218.new.html
Please continue discussion that thread.

This topic is to discuss the options for an upcoming Style Guide poll relating to how we should handle pack-in games within games. Currently, there is a loose understanding that they should be treated the same as pack-in games from accessories or hardware, but this is not in the Style Guide or Advanced Guide.

Pack-in games with accessories or hardware are allowed separate entries in the appropriate games category if the pack-in item is unique. This is most evident in the case of NFR media or games in a packaging that was only available with that particular item but not sold separately. It is also applied in the case of computer games that were sold with a computer, video card or sound card.

Pack-in games with games come in two varieties. The first is the "collection" where a outer packaging contains multiple game cases. These entries are currently allowed to have an entry for the main set, as well as separate entries for the individual releases.

Examples:
Sled Storm / The Need for Speed III / NASCAR Rumble - Collector's Edition (PlayStation)
main set: https://vgcollect.com/item/182361
Sled Storm: https://vgcollect.com/item/28891
NFS III: https://vgcollect.com/item/77625
NASCAR Rumble: https://vgcollect.com/item/77626

Dead or Alive Ultimate (Xbox)
main set: https://vgcollect.com/item/214
DOA1: https://vgcollect.com/item/43007
DOA2: https://vgcollect.com/item/32193

The second type is the individual media that had a unique release as a pack-in with a game. This is the situation that is not explicitly covered by the Style Guide.
Final Fantasy Chronicles for PlayStation: https://vgcollect.com/item/6572
Includes 2 discs: Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger.
There is no additional entry for Final Fantasy IV.
There is an entry for the Chrono Trigger disc: https://vgcollect.com/item/125450

Bayonetta 2 (Bonus Bayonetta Game Included) for Wii U: https://vgcollect.com/item/33978
Includes 2 discs: Bayonetta 2 and Bayonetta.
There is no additional entry for Bayonetta 2.
There is an entry for the Bayonetta disc: https://vgcollect.com/item/80602

If we were to allow individual loose releases of unique game releases that were contained within a game release, these would be the following implications:
- The Final Fantasy IV disc in the example above would have a loose entry.
- Each of the individual discs from within Half-Life Platinum Collection would be allowed separate entries.

If we do not allow the separate entries, then users will have to use the notes section when adding an item to their collection to track its completeness. Then the individual media entries would be removed from the db.

More implications will be added as more examples are given.
Please list further examples where these types of games within games exist, and you can also post your opinion on whether games from games should be allowed separate entries.

Poll to come following some discussion.

Preliminary poll options:
1. Do not allow pack-in games from games or game packs
2. Allow pack-in games from games or game packs
3. Only allow pack-in games from games or game packs if the game has its own packaging
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 12:25:57 pm by tripredacus »

pzeke

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 02:50:06 pm »
First the TLD, and now this. Boy are we starting to overcomplicate things around here...

It's understandable to have separate listings for the first two examples you gave, but for stuff like Final Fantasy Chronicles it just doesn't make sense...albeit I do believe there are a few exceptions to this, like Rodea: The Sky Soldier for instance.

The second row of examples you gave don't need to be broken up into individual entries, neither do the additional examples given as implications; the notes section is readily available for all users to write down any pertinent information regarding their items, like stating what they have or don't have. I would understand for a release like Final Fantasy Anthology, or any other similar to it that's bundled with a CD to have a separate entry for that particular disc. What's next, making separate entries for every disc for games like The Legend of Dragoon, Final Fantasy VII, Lost Odyssey, or Arc the Lad Collection? Making a separate entry for the slipcover of Resident Evil 5 Gold Edition or Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice? Making an entry just for a game's manual?

If we do not allow the separate entries, then users will have to use the notes section when adding an item to their collection to track its completeness. Then the individual media entries would be removed from the db.

There, Bob's your uncle.
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When confrontation comes down to the wire, I'll use my cyclotrode to commence the fire.
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Cartagia

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 04:50:33 pm »
I am against separate entries for pack-in games that were not separately released.  I see it as no different than someone asking for a separate entry for the pack-ins that come with a collector's edition - or to an even more extreme, for instruction manuals or other paperwork.



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retromangia

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 05:51:41 pm »
I think it's a good idea in theory, but like others have said it may over complicate it. Things are starting to get a bit robotic around here. I usually just use the notes section when adding a loose disc from combination box set, noting to myself which items I have, and what I'm missing.

As for what I mean about things feeling robotic (maybe there's a better term, too computer codey??  :D), a good example is the changes we've made to some accessories, namely the PlayStation memory cards. Before they were very easy to identify, with names like "PlayStation 2 Memory Card - Crimson Red".  This was excellent.   

Now they have very generic names and no main photo such as "Sony Memory Card SCPH-10020 ER".  https://vgcollect.com/item/44121.  I think we should go back to the old style, as they were much easier to identify, plus just looked nicer overall in the collection.

Love the site, just trying to add some constructive criticism  ;)


telly

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2020, 07:54:45 pm »
I wouldn't even consider some of these examples "pack in titles" to begin with. Bayonetta 2, yes, that makes sense. There are two releases on the Wii U, one that includes Bayonetta 1 and one that does not. Chrono Trigger is NOT a "pack in title" for Final Fantasy Chronicles because... that's the product. The release is those two games, always, no exception. There aren't two releases with one having Chrono Trigger thrown in as a bonus. I 100% believe titles like that should be merged.

For some reason, I'm totally okay with listing pack-in games for consoles and accessories separately (hell I've made a couple entries of those myself). Pack in games with games feels like you're just splitting out incomplete portions of the released products for me, even though it's essentially the same idea. I dunno. Could go either way with this.

I think we need to decide what a "pack in" game actually is, because I feel like it's something that's added in as an extra bonus. If it's not an added extra, it's as tied to the main item as a game's manual or a slipcase. I don't think NASCAR Rumble, DOA Ultimate, or Final Fantasy Chronicles fall into that category.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 08:03:03 pm by telly »
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Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2020, 09:13:13 pm »
I wouldn't even consider some of these examples "pack in titles" to begin with. Chrono Trigger is NOT a "pack in title" for Final Fantasy Chronicles because... that's the product.

This is also my view on the matter.

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2020, 10:27:42 pm »
Personally, as someone who owns Sled Storm and not the other titles, I like being able to list Sled Storm separately, because I have no intent of owning the other titles and I didn't even mean to own the variant I have, it just happens to be what I was sent when I bought the game online.

As someone who owns both DOA games, but not the outer box, I also prefer having separate entries.

As mentioned before, if someone has Bayonetta 2 only, they can easily just use the standalone Bayonetta 2 entry.  As for Bayonetta one, if I had just the disc, I'd want to be able to list that.  I could see someone owning just Bayonetta 1 for Wii U and owning Bayonetta 2 for Switch (Because Bayonetta 1 Switch physical is impossible to find).  I also know it's common for folks to find disc only copies of stuff or for Gamestop for instance to sell the disc separately, so stand alone entry makes sense to me.

In the case of the controversial, I feel the same way about FF Chronicles.  If someone manages to buy just Chrono Trigger disc only, I see no reason not to have an entry for it.  Same applies for FFIV.

There aren't so many use cases here that this is going to make things more bloated than it already is.  Extending the argument to "Well now people will want to list manuals separately" doesn't really apply as you can just add the game to your collection and mark it manual only, it's a scenario that is absolutely covered.  And extending it to Lost Odyssey's multiple discs as separate entries, I feel like that is for sure a line not to cross.  You say how do you define that line?  Lost Odyssey is 1 game with multiple discs.  FF Chronicles is 1 product, 2 games, 2 discs.  If half of CT and half of FF4 were on each disc such that to play the full of either game would require both discs, I'd agree, but they are two stand alone games on two separate discs.  It's a pretty simple line to define.

As another example, I think our current entries for Star Fox Zero are correct as well.  1 entry for the bundle and 1 entry for each game respectively.


retromangia

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2020, 10:29:04 pm »
Telly very good point. I would consider a "pack-in" title such as Wii Sports, or Sonic the Hedgehog.  However I'm pretty sure we already have a category for this no?  These would fall under "Not for Resale" releases if I'm not mistaken.

However, I just had a great idea for a new site feature. Picture this, For every entry on the site, starting with games first, what if there were section to add all the included inserts and items for every game.  Hear me out. With many games including much more than just a manual, whether it be a registration card, mini poster, advertisement, etc., I think having a section outlining what's included with each release would be a HUGE benefit to everyone on this site, and hell every collector out there really.  :D Just think about how much time is wasted pouring over ebay auctions, google images, etc trying to figure out if your game is actually complete or not. Some collector's might not care about this, but those who want their games 100% complete would find this information priceless.

It would take quite a bit of effort, but I think with the help of our amazing community here, overtime it could grow into something beautiful  ;)

leonefamily

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2020, 11:41:51 pm »
My opinion:

First scenario we should keep the way it is now.

Second scenario I don't know. I'd say maybe we should keep it the way it is but on the other hand there are some cases where it could make sense to create separate entries for loose pack-ins. A good example is Call of Duty: Black Ops Declassified on the Vita. The game has an insert containing a download code for Call of Duty: Roads to Victory which is to my knowledge the only existing method to get a digital version of the game, as well as the only method to get the game on Vita rather than PSP (except jailbreaking of course). Second scenario really differs on a case-to-case basis.
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pzeke

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2020, 07:37:26 am »
Personally, as someone who owns Sled Storm and not the other titles, I like being able to list Sled Storm separately, because I have no intent of owning the other titles and I didn't even mean to own the variant I have, it just happens to be what I was sent when I bought the game online.

As someone who owns both DOA games, but not the outer box, I also prefer having separate entries.

As another example, I think our current entries for Star Fox Zero are correct as well.  1 entry for the bundle and 1 entry for each game respectively.

For those type of releases, which tend to be games collected in a single package or a two-in-one, it's reasonable to have separate entries for each of them; and it has been agreed on for the longest time now.

As mentioned before, if someone has Bayonetta 2 only, they can easily just use the standalone Bayonetta 2 entry.  As for Bayonetta one, if I had just the disc, I'd want to be able to list that.  I could see someone owning just Bayonetta 1 for Wii U and owning Bayonetta 2 for Switch (Because Bayonetta 1 Switch physical is impossible to find).  I also know it's common for folks to find disc only copies of stuff or for Gamestop for instance to sell the disc separately, so stand alone entry makes sense to me.

I kind of get where you're coming from, especially seeing as the Bayonetta disc for the Wii U is a "bonus" game, but it's not something like with Rodea: The Sky Soldier for the same console, which also comes with a bonus game, but said game happens to be for a completely different console. Not only that, but the cover for the game is twofold, as it serves for either the Wii U or for the Wii. I still think the notes section is more than adequete for anyone to use and state that they only have the disc for Bayonetta.

[...] "Well now people will want to list manuals separately" doesn't really apply as you can just add the game to your collection and mark it manual only, it's a scenario that is absolutely covered. [...]

And the same can be done for the games you mentioned, including Bayonetta—mark it "Cart/Disc" and in the notes section specify which disc you own.

You know, this website needs to be worked on heavily, as it lacks features that could help mitigate many of these issues. For instance, in the check mark area, for "Cart/Disc" an additional "togglable" checkbox could be implemented for people that only own a disc or two of multi-disc games.

However, I just had a great idea for a new site feature. Picture this, For every entry on the site, starting with games first, what if there were section to add all the included inserts and items for every game.  Hear me out. With many games including much more than just a manual, whether it be a registration card, mini poster, advertisement, etc., I think having a section outlining what's included with each release would be a HUGE benefit to everyone on this site, and hell every collector out there really.  :D Just think about how much time is wasted pouring over ebay auctions, google images, etc trying to figure out if your game is actually complete or not. Some collector's might not care about this, but those who want their games 100% complete would find this information priceless.

Maybe an additional section in the "Info" tab on every entry could be implemented labeled "Contents" for this. The description section would seem like a good place to detail that type of information, but I think it might seem rather superfluous to be added there. Otherwise, you can always use the notes section for any particular item in your collection to list/describe its contents.
I know your every move behind this face; I have control over expendable slaves.
When confrontation comes down to the wire, I'll use my cyclotrode to commence the fire.
You're never gonna get me!

Cartagia

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2020, 09:53:18 am »
I wouldn't even consider some of these examples "pack in titles" to begin with. Chrono Trigger is NOT a "pack in title" for Final Fantasy Chronicles because... that's the product.

This is also my view on the matter.

Agreed.

[...] "Well now people will want to list manuals separately" doesn't really apply as you can just add the game to your collection and mark it manual only, it's a scenario that is absolutely covered. [...]

And the same can be done for the games you mentioned, including Bayonetta—mark it "Cart/Disc" and in the notes section specify which disc you own.

Precisely.  My example is an extreme and a bit of a slippery slope, but it is no different than this.



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Flashback2012

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2020, 02:48:01 pm »
"Notes" would fix a lot of these issues. In most of the cases presented so far, the issue can be fixed by adding the "parent" entry to the person's collection and just adding a note like "Only own GameX from this collection."  Of course this isn't good enough for some users which is why it's an issue in the first place.  :P

I have very few horses in this race but would like to see less clutter on the site. I'd love for packaging variants with the same barcodes to be just one entry but we'll NEVER get a site overhaul that would make that a reality (having multiple front/back/disc images per entry). The problem presented here is more user-defined in that some are so insistent on listing every single tiny thing because that's what they have instead of the complete articles that a lot of these things were originally a part of.

Incidentally, I ran into this a few years ago with Interactive Figures. At the time I decided against adding in entries for things that were included in sets individually as I was okay with having one entry even if there were 3 or so pieces in the set. Some others who came along after me went ahead and added those individual items.  :P

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2020, 02:00:11 am »
This sounds like an artificial way to boost collection numbers.

tripredacus

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2020, 10:03:51 am »
The Style Guide would be largely useless if we had a system like retromaniga and I have talked about many times. A design for such a system has already been shown to the developers, but for now all we can do is best work with the system we have now. If/when they decide to update the site, we'll tackle it then. In relation to what Flashback said, I also believe that the site should have "less clutter" but more importantly, be able to be viewed as people want. Because there are those who would just want to see 1 entry per game per platform, and also those who want to see the variations. If would be best if a person could choose what they wanted to see so they do not get overwhelmed by the extra stuff.

Added preliminary poll options to first post, and a third "Only allow pack-in games from games or game packs if the game has its own packaging" which would allow things like the PlayStation CEs and DOA Ultimate on Xbox to have separate entries (because they have individual game cases) but not the Chrono Trigger disc or Bayonetta disc.

Cartagia

Re: Style Discussion: Pack-in games from games
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2020, 11:09:31 am »
My vote would be for option #3.



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