Reproduction carts

[insektmute]

I seem to run into a slew of these every time I dig around old console games on the site, but I'm wondering what the official stance is on things like repro carts? To my thinking, they're in the same camp as things like downloaded ROMs, burned Dreamcast games, fake Neo-Geo carts passed off as the real thing, etc. and so they shouldn't be here, but I feel like this may have come up once before and people were in favor of listing them.

[haloofthesun]

I have some. They physically exist in my collection, so I would like to keep track of them.

[insektmute]

Right, but by that measure, if I burn a bunch of Dreamcast games, put together some nice packaging, and sell them online for a profit, those should also be viable to be listed, even though they're just bootlegs? One of the repro companies I saw was even scrapping the plastic casings from other games, and painting them to hide scuffs and scratches.

I get why some people buy them and all, but my perception of VGC has always been that it's about collecting actual, released games, and as an extension of that, stuff like ROMs and bootlegs are excluded except maybe in instances where a publisher has given explicit permission for a specific individual or company to do so.

[turf]

Right, but by that measure, if I burn a bunch of Dreamcast games, put together some nice packaging, and sell them online for a profit, those should also be viable to be listed, even though they're just bootlegs? One of the repro companies I saw was even scrapping the plastic casings from other games, and painting them to hide scuffs and scratches.

I get why some people buy them and all, but my perception of VGC has always been that it's about collecting actual, released games, and as an extension of that, stuff like ROMs and bootlegs are excluded except maybe in instances where a publisher has given explicit permission for a specific individual or company to do so.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but what about the Camerica, Wisdom Tree, and Tengen games on the NES?  Aren't they the same thing?  I think a repro game has it's place. 

A repro game that wasn't originally released in the US should be added.  A burned Dreamcast game from your buddy is completly different.

[matt]

We've been discussing this a lot internally as they do seem to mud up the listings. Keep this discussion going so we can get some opinions and expect an official decision soon.

[foxhack]

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but what about the Camerica, Wisdom Tree, and Tengen games on the NES?  Aren't they the same thing?  I think a repro game has it's place. 

A repro game that wasn't originally released in the US should be added.  A burned Dreamcast game from your buddy is completly different.

A repro game is a glorified bootleg.

They should be added. But they should be separate from official releases.

There are three kinds of games for consoles: Officially licensed, unlicensed (Tengen, Camerica, homebrew games with original code), and pirates. Pirates include reproduction carts.

If the reproduction carts are legally sanctioned by whoever created the original software, then they fall under unlicensed. If the reproduction carts are of a game that was never released in a specific region, are altered in any way (like a translated game), a prototype that was never meant to be distributed, etc... it's still a bootleg. Period.

This isn't so easy to define, I know.

[scott]

I only have one Repro cart and it's Dragon Quest Monsters: Caravan Heart. While it's part of my GBA collection, since it's not a legit release I don't have it listed in my collection. Though I have the homebrew cart of Battle Kid: The Fortress of Peril also and it is listed in my collection.

Personally, and this is only my opinion on it, I believe VGC should only list legit releases by actual publishers and stay away from listing hacks, pirates, bootlegs and such. But there was a lot of call for allowing homebrews and we agreed. Though I agree with homebrew games like Battle Kid: Fortress of Peril, or Hydorah, which are listed in my collection, since they are made by a developer from scratch. I don't agree with romhacks and the like and I believe they don't really belong in the database. There has been a lot of back and forth on what we should do with things like this. But like everything we don't just jump in full balls on decisions and like to gauge everyone's opinions.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, but what about the Camerica, Wisdom Tree, and Tengen games on the NES?  Aren't they the same thing?  I think a repro game has it's place. 

A repro game that wasn't originally released in the US should be added.  A burned Dreamcast game from your buddy is completly different.

A repro game is a glorified bootleg.

They should be added. But they should be separate from official releases.

There are three kinds of games for consoles: Officially licensed, unlicensed (Tengen, Camerica, homebrew games with original code), and pirates. Pirates include reproduction carts.

If the reproduction carts are legally sanctioned by whoever created the original software, then they fall under unlicensed. If the reproduction carts are of a game that was never released in a specific region, are altered in any way (like a translated game), a prototype that was never meant to be distributed, etc... it's still a bootleg. Period.

This isn't so easy to define, I know.

At the moment. I am debating on splitting the Categories again and moving demos and homebrews/etc to their own categories and cleaning up the actual console listings.

[haloofthesun]

Not to sound rude or defensive, but I don't feel like anyone should be able to say what I can or cannot have listed in my collection. I don't really know how to say that nicely, so I'm sorry if that comes off as angry. I'm not.

A database of video games is already going to be cluttered, even without repros. There are thousands upon thousands of video games. A few dozen repro carts is not going to "mud things up".

However, I do agree that romhacks may be unnecessary. I would vote to keep them anyway but I can understand wanting to get rid of them. Removing Engilish translations and unreleased games doesn't make any sense though.

[turf]

If someone puts it on a cart/disc and someone buys it to add it to their collection, that should be up to the collector.
I do agree that rom hacks, translations, unofficial re-releases, etc. should all be kept seperate from the original releases.  It doesn't matter how the game was made; it still exists and we should be given the option to add it to our collection. 

My opinion: Allow them to be added, but be kept seperate from the original releases.

[haloofthesun]

Yeah, I'm not sure why it just can't be marked as a Reproduction. Whenever I've added any to the database, I've always marked them as Unofficial, Unreleased, or Homebrew, depending on which they were, but having a category for Reproduction would be the best way to go, really.

[foxhack]

Not to sound rude or defensive, but I don't feel like anyone should be able to say what I can or cannot have listed in my collection. I don't really know how to say that nicely, so I'm sorry if that comes off as angry. I'm not.

A database of video games is already going to be cluttered, even without repros. There are thousands upon thousands of video games. A few dozen repro carts is not going to "mud things up".

However, I do agree that romhacks may be unnecessary. I would vote to keep them anyway but I can understand wanting to get rid of them. Removing Engilish translations and unreleased games doesn't make any sense though.

I get angry about those items from two different points of view.

As an admin, the database gets cluttered with false information added by the repro cart creators. My repro has an ESRB rating and a UPC! Uh, no it doesn't. Those are fake. I remember someone adding a repro that had the UPC code for the SNES Marvel Super Heroes game... this also clutters up Google search rankings and it makes it look like the item is official when it's not.

As a collector (okay and as an admin too) I hate having to deal with Dreamcast games downloaded from the internet and burned to CD-R. Stuff like Beats of Rage mods, Bleemcast PS1 ports, MAME collections? The freakin' HALF-LIFE DC proto that got leaked to the internet? That does not belong here. Ugh, I don't know.

[haloofthesun]

Entries with false information does not make the item in question an invalid inclusion. That can be corrected. I think indicating on the item's page that it's a reproduction should be enough to let anyone know that it's not an official item, especially considering this place is for collectors.

The Dreamcast stuff you've listed surely doesn't belong. That's like saying if I had a collection of NES roms on a flash drive or if I had any of the countless Final Fantasy III SNES hacks burnt to a disc and the booted them with an emulator on a console then it should be added to the database, and that's just silly. Repro carts aren't the same thing (unless you're going to go with a slippery slope argument).

Terranigma? Keep it.
Castlevania: Chorus of Mysteries? Purge

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[foxhack]

Entries with false information does not make the item in question an invalid inclusion. That can be corrected. I think indicating on the item's page that it's a reproduction should be enough to let anyone know that it's not an official item, especially considering this place is for collectors.

The Dreamcast stuff you've listed surely doesn't belong. That's like saying if I had a collection of NES roms on a flash drive or if I had any of the countless Final Fantasy III SNES hacks burnt to a disc and the booted them with an emulator on a console then it should be added to the database, and that's just silly. Repro carts aren't the same thing (unless you're going to go with a slippery slope argument).

Terranigma? Keep it.
Castlevania: Chorus of Mysteries? Purge

Anyway, that's my two cents.

By your reasoning, Terranigma shouldn't be here either. Because it's a hack. (A PAL to NTSC hack, but still, a hack.)

You should also not ignore a game just because it's a hack. There's some truly impressive stuff out there.

[haloofthesun]

I wouldn't call it a hack still, but then we're dissecting definitions and there's no point in that lol.

And I personally do like a lot of romhacks and some of the repro carts I own are such, I just meant I can understand not including them in the database.

[teck]

I worry about 2 major issues....  One is legitimacy....  There are a LOT of different games in the world from different regions....  I get customers fairly often who have been duped into buying a repro thinking it was legit due to bad information and misleading ebay auctions....  Yes Terranigma is an amazing game, but there is NO North American release for it and that is just a fact people have to live with....  Dumping a PAL version into a cheap gutted US cartridge and reselling them online for $70 plus is immoral in my stand point....  I already have mixed feelings about digital content being listed here as it just muddles things while I browse for physical releases....  Granted the search engine could use an overhaul....  Imagine the confusion for newer collectors and enthusiasts when they start finding Zelda games for SNES that aren't A Link to the Past....  I would go so far as to say that if we wanted those kinds of things around that there should be a sister site for it like vgchomebrew.com or something....

The second issue I see with repros is that they will be an incredible pain in the ass to track....  Think of all the inaccurate information or lack of information that would have to be parsed from the database for those entries....  Who is the developer~?  When was it released~?  Shit, the labels could end up with 5 or 6 different variations depending on the situation as well....  I think it would be a nightmare from the implementation side for the site as well....  As I previously mentioned, if there were a sister site set/database setup that would prevent them from bleeding into each other I think both parties would be equally happy....  But as I previously stated, I refuse to even consider swag, digital, and hardware as a part of my "colelction" so maybe my opinions are a little overbearing....