VGCollect Secret Santa Feedback

[pzeke]

Of all the forums I've been and am still currently a part of, this is, by far, the one that likes making nearly everything a Rube Goldberg process. You're going around Robin Hood's barn with this, mate; a $60 budget is plenty enough, and this is ignoring the fact the average budget for an event like this usually fluctuates around $20–$50. But, of course, we're talking about video games here, so...

And before there's any kind of talk of whether the budget should be increased, I believe no, $60 is a fair price range to adhere to. What has to be done here is the giftees taking that price to heart and properly using the wish list to add games that don't go over the stipulated price, as well as come to terms with the possibility that their Secret Santa may end up gifting just one game that could possibly cost them $60. That of course doesn't mean a Secret Santa can't throw something else in the package for the sake of Christmas, but this notion of always expecting more than one thing is, in my sincerest opinion, detrimental to the spirit of the event.

I was going to continue my train of thought, but then I remembered what I said previously (quoted above). What NickAwesome said I feel is also quite fitting, which I'll quote below. There's really no more to this; otherwise, efface the current budget and let the gifter decide how much they want to spend based on their giftee's wish list and their own budgetary constraints. But, again, $60 is more than enough.

The only expectation any recipient should have is that you are guaranteed to receive at least $60 worth of videogames or videogame related items before shipping that is not a duplicate of anything you own on your vgcollect profile, is in the region you prefer, and is on your wishlist if that is what you express to the organizer. 

If a Secret Santa wants to exceed the $60 threshold- they should be free to do so- but the expectation should not be that everyone has to do so- otherwise what's the point of even having a minimum.

There should be a budget, it's just that there doesn't have to be much of a guideline if people decide to go over it.

And there it is; there you have it: Bod's your uncle.

This goes against the basic principles of both a budget and a gift-exchange event. Budgets are meant to be adhered to as close as possible. Meanwhile, budgets are often set for gift-exchange events so that every participant receives an equal value gift. So, naturally, if one is allowed to go over-budget but is still expected to send a gift of equal value, that allowance should be minimal. If 0% is the agreed-upon budget, then one should aim to keep the additional percentage as low as they can.

Good grief, dude, cut the magniloquence a tad, you essentially repeated what sworddude said. It's obvious that budgets for this type of event are meant to be adhered to, and it's obvious that if a gifter wishes to go over the established budget, they're well within their right to do so; it's their choice if they want to spend a few more bucks "for the sake of Christmas", especially if their giftee happens to be someone that they appreciate. That's, after all, partly the spirit of the event. A terse note saying that the budget is X amount but that going over it is left at the gifter's discretion should suffice. And as far as shipping costs go, the mere thought of mixing them with the budget is, to put it bluntly, asinine, especially when taking international shipping costs into account. When you're out and about looking to buy gifts during Christmas or for any other occasion, do you include shipping costs as part of your budget, particularly when it involves a loved one?

I mean, I'm probably going to get lambasted for saying this given the track record, but this is common sense, or rather, let's say common knowledge for the sake of the argument; it doesn't need to be made as intricate as an IKEA instructional manual. Just make sure the first post clearly enumerates the basics of a Secret Santa, as if you were explaining it to a 5-year-old, and be specific about the overall budget and the role the wish list plays in the event. And, in regards to gifts being of "equal value", since I'm sure you're still going to bring that up if I don't make mention of it, that's the point of the wish list, where users should include items that fall within the set budget. If a user only has one item that's within the budget and a bunch of other items that cost $10 where the gifter is unable to find the one of higher value but many of the lower-valued ones, then that user can't come here complaining that they somehow got fleeced or that their Secret Santa didn't "fill their quota". I'll have to cut my argument here, given that I was going to mention how the wish list function here has a dropdown menu that sets a priority flag to whatever item you add to it, which in turn could have further helped a Secret Santa know what items to zero in on for their giftees, but, as it turns out, that feature is a total bust. Why am I not surprised...?

For a whole decade, this event has seen various degrees of success, with its few hiccups here and there, sure, some due to user error, others due to miscommunication, to the point we managed to have a strong bond of camaraderie when participants were willing to pitch in given it seemed one user hadn't received their gift, in the end resolving itself when they finally did (and apparently receiving a second when someone sent a care package). Now we have to go through this otiose exercise all because of a thankless jerkwad? Fuck no. This type of event is supposed to be fun and simple, something I feel soera abundantly demonstrated during the time he hosted the event; we're not dealing with quantum mechanics here.

I didn't want to speak to the people who had to pay for overseas shipping, but I had a feeling this might be the case.

And why would you not, especially when you yourself said that "shipping can be pricey"? If that's a truth for you, then it's safe to say it's also for someone living on the other side of the globe, especially if they're shipping internationally. The basics of Secret Santa are universal. C'mon, man, you're a mod now; look out for your fellow denizens.

[dhaabi]

Just make sure the first post clearly enumerates the basics of a Secret Santa, as if you were explaining it to a 5-year-old, and be specific about the overall budget and the role the wish list plays in the event.

To begin, feedback wanting to be collected has nothing to do with any particular past circumstance. When I took on the role of being 2023's organizer, I knew from the start that there would be a follow-up feedback discussion. Otherwise, nothing ever improves and anything uncertain remains that way.

With the above comment in mind, rules and understandings for issues like these, no matter how simple they may appear to be, greatly benefit from discussion, because people obviously think differently on certain issues. It is intended for collected feedback itself to craft the specific outlines such as how the budget should be handled, how shipping relates to the budget, and selecting items from the wish list. Otherwise, it is merely one person dictating what is and isn't, which should be avoided. With the feedback collected in this topic, we can then ensure that these are guidelines formed with the community in mind, which couldn't be done before the start of this past year's event as there was much to do in the short time available once it began being organized.

As you say, it is common knowledge, or rather, common sense for collected feedback to be put to good use. So, obviously, my counterargument was never going to be the deciding factor for how a certain guideline is enforced. Instead, it was introduced to elicit conversation to hopefully yield a fruitful discussion, which was successful with the first matter regarding going over-budget. We know that we think differently on these issues, so discussing the pros and cons to them, alongside counterpoints refuting both sides, is helpful in articulating one's opinion and, possibly, swaying others' positions on matters.

Appreciate the feedback.

[pzeke]

If this is for you, then cool, I guess, but it still seems supererogatory, in my opinion.

Either way, keep on rolling.

[dhaabi]

Question: Yes or no: shipping costs should be included with the agreed upon spending limit.
Choice 1: Yes. Shipping costs should be considered to be a part of the agreed upon spending limit. 50%
Choice 2: No. Shipping costs should not be considered to be a part of the agreed upon spending limit. 50%

Whether you agree or disagree with the above question, why is that?

Since nobody on the forums has actually spoken in favor of Choice 2, I was curious to see what kind of feedback I'd collect from AI.

Prompt:
An online Secret Santa gift exchange has a budget of $60. What are some defending arguments for the view that shipping costs are a part of the actual budget. For example, if a gift costs $30 and the shipping also costs $30, the $60 total budget has been met.

Response:

Including shipping costs as part of the actual budget in an online Secret Santa gift exchange has several defending arguments:

1 Comprehensive Budgeting: Considering shipping costs as part of the budget provides a more realistic and comprehensive view of the total expenses involved in participating. It acknowledges that the cost of sending a gift is an integral component of the overall budgeting process.

2 Transparent Guidelines: Clearly stating that the budget encompasses both the cost of the gift and its shipping helps set transparent guidelines for participants. This clarity ensures that everyone understands the full extent of their financial commitment when participating in the Secret Santa exchange.

3 Avoiding Budget Overruns: By explicitly including shipping costs within the $60 budget, participants are less likely to exceed the prescribed limit unintentionally. This prevents budget overruns and helps maintain fairness and consistency among all participants.

4 Encouraging Consideration of Total Costs: Including shipping costs prompts participants to consider the total expenses associated with their chosen gifts. This encourages thoughtful and responsible decision-making, as participants weigh the combined cost of the gift and its shipping against the budget constraint.

5 Preventing Unequal Spending: If shipping costs are excluded from the budget, participants might end up spending significantly different amounts based on their geographic locations. Including shipping costs ensures that everyone has an equal financial commitment, irrespective of their location.

6 Flexibility in Gift Selection: Recognizing shipping costs as part of the budget allows participants greater flexibility in choosing gifts. They can factor in both the item's cost and the associated shipping expenses without worrying about exceeding the budget.

7 Accommodating Diverse Locations: In an online Secret Santa with participants from various locations, including shipping costs accommodates the diverse geographic spread. It acknowledges the potential variations in shipping fees based on distances and ensures that participants from different regions are not disadvantaged.

8 Simplifying Budgeting for Participants: Participants may find it easier to manage their budget when it explicitly covers both the gift and shipping costs. This simplification contributes to a smoother and more enjoyable gift exchange experience for all involved.

9 Mitigating Financial Burden: Including shipping costs as part of the budget helps prevent financial strain on participants, particularly those who may have to send gifts internationally. It promotes inclusivity by acknowledging that shipping expenses are an integral aspect of the gift exchange process.

In summary, incorporating shipping costs into the actual budget of an online Secret Santa gift exchange promotes transparency, prevents unequal spending, and facilitates more informed and responsible decision-making by participants. It ensures that the budget reflects the true cost of participating in the gift exchange.

In the end, I have the feeling that anyone who voted that shipping costs should be considered and expected as part of the budget did so because they're uncomfortable with exceeding whatever budget has been set. From my point-of-view, the first five points which AI yielded have some merit, but I also think that the counterarguments to those points are more realistic in how participants select gifts and the matter of high shipping costs. So high in costs that, for some, shipping may even come close to outweighing the actual gift value, which has been mentioned by others.

If there isn't any more active conversation for the discussion on whether shipping should be included as part of the budget or not, I'll introduce the third talking point soon.

[dhaabi]

Prompt: Members from all over the world participate in VGCollect Secret Santa. Therefore, unless specific items are requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should not expect the exact regional item as a gift. (e.g. NA participant requested NA Resident Evil but received JP Biohazard.)
Choice 1: I agree. Unless a specific item is requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should be willing to receive items from any region. 16.7%
Choice 2: I agree. Unless a specific item is requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should be willing to receive items from any region. However, this should only be expected when the hardware to play the item is region-free, such as the PlayStation 4 and Switch. 33.3%
Choice 3: I disagree. Santas should be willing to provide region-specific gifts based on their giftee's location, unless specified otherwise. (e.g. a NA Santa should be expected to gift their JP giftee games from Japan, not from North America.) 33.3%
Other (custom answer): This is a hard one. Generally the non-NA participants are the ones who this could be an issue for, but every time I've gotten a non-NA participant they have had a good variety of easily attainable games for their gifter. 16.7%

This question doesn't necessarily affect anyone who's wanting to avoid shipping internationally, but it certainly does affect all others. Whether you agree or disagree with the above statement, why is that?

[sworddude]

Prompt: Members from all over the world participate in VGCollect Secret Santa. Therefore, unless specific items are requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should not expect the exact regional item as a gift. (e.g. NA participant requested NA Resident Evil but received JP Biohazard.)

I assume you mean for a console that isn't region locked right?

Cause for ps1, to play imports you either need

- The correct region console
- a game shark in which you bypass the menu
- a modded console

and if you don't have that your stuck with the disc swap trick, which can damage the console and your disc and is a pain in the ass to pull off. But this free option is not always a thing that works on other consoles that's just for ps1.

If it's region locked it's a defo no no unless receiver doesn't mind imports and stated it somewhere. Might be unplayable otherwise. Not to mention how playable would said game be in japanese? If it's an rpg screen translation apps only go so far.

If it's region free you got more of a point, unless someone specifically requests to have their desired version.

Still this is vgcollect, and while imports can be cheaper from a collector's standpoint you'd think people want their own region version. I could see exceptions when stuff is way cheaper but at that point they'd probably have the other version listed in their wish list aswell.

Still would depend on the person, cause as long as the box is english I've seen folks that wouldn't mind either version with consoles like ds, gameboy ps4, switch

[puddingm]

Prompt: Members from all over the world participate in VGCollect Secret Santa. Therefore, unless specific items are requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should not expect the exact regional item as a gift. (e.g. NA participant requested NA Resident Evil but received JP Biohazard.)
Choice 1: I agree. Unless a specific item is requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should be willing to receive items from any region. 16.7%
Choice 2: I agree. Unless a specific item is requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should be willing to receive items from any region. However, this should only be expected when the hardware to play the item is region-free, such as the PlayStation 4 and Switch. 33.3%
Choice 3: I disagree. Santas should be willing to provide region-specific gifts based on their giftee's location, unless specified otherwise. (e.g. a NA Santa should be expected to gift their JP giftee games from Japan, not from North America.) 33.3%
Other (custom answer): This is a hard one. Generally the non-NA participants are the ones who this could be an issue for, but every time I've gotten a non-NA participant they have had a good variety of easily attainable games for their gifter. 16.7%

This question doesn't necessarily affect anyone who's wanting to avoid shipping internationally, but it certainly does affect all others. Whether you agree or disagree with the above statement, why is that?

Interesting to see such a varied response to this and think sworddude has covered how I see it as well.

[dhaabi]

Prompt: Members from all over the world participate in VGCollect Secret Santa. Therefore, unless specific items are requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should not expect the exact regional item as a gift. (e.g. NA participant requested NA Resident Evil but received JP Biohazard.)
Choice 1: I agree. Unless a specific item is requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should be willing to receive items from any region. 16.7%
Choice 2: I agree. Unless a specific item is requested based on shopping preference priority, participants should be willing to receive items from any region. However, this should only be expected when the hardware to play the item is region-free, such as the PlayStation 4 and Switch. 33.3%
Choice 3: I disagree. Santas should be willing to provide region-specific gifts based on their giftee's location, unless specified otherwise. (e.g. a NA Santa should be expected to gift their JP giftee games from Japan, not from North America.) 33.3%
Other (custom answer): This is a hard one. Generally the non-NA participants are the ones who this could be an issue for, but every time I've gotten a non-NA participant they have had a good variety of easily attainable games for their gifter. 16.7%

Having thought about this question some more, this sort of preference seems better implemented as a question needing to be asked to each participant during the sign-up process. Unlike the two previous questions, it only affects everyone on an individual level.

Below are several comments received during the initial feedback poll. They're followed by my personal opinion on the matter, but anyone else can voice their opinion as well.

I wish we could somehow limit participation in the discussion threads to people who are participating or who have participated in the past

There are pros and cons to having the discussion be private or public. While a private discussion obviously keeps those who don't have business with the event from participating in the dialogue, it also prohibits anyone possibly interested in joining the following year because there's no public credibility. Of course, we could always move the topic to a private board while it's ongoing and then move it back to the public once completed with a little effort, but only Admins have that capability.

For easy viewing, status of each package added in the main post (as per previous years) as the event progresses.

I agree that this would be helpful, and I did think about including that detail like previous events have done. However, since the pool of participants was so small, it would be quite easy to figure out who their Santa was before their packaged even arrived since I was also giving many participants an ETA on when gifts would be delivered alongside participants posting publicly about when items were being shipped out. I really wanted to avoid anyone finding out their Santa's identity early on.

[Secret Santa could be improved by having the] visibility to see the info that we have originally submitted via Google Form (if it's not already a function).

I believe this would require e-mail addresses to be collected which I felt was unneeded. If a form is ever used again for the sign-up process, it would be easy to relay that information if requested, though.

At this point, the three aforementioned questions were the only ones needing to be discussed pertaining to the event on a general level. Of course, discussion can still continue relating to them should anyone want to add anything. That said, if anyone else has feedback, suggestions, comments, questions, concerns, or anything else worth mentioning, feel free to post them.

I've also updated the topic post with useful links.