New Gaming Genre for Metroidvanias?

[axiomenterance]

Being an older gamer (my first game system was the Atari 2600) seeing the rise of every single video genre come into existence the rise of the Souls Like has thrown a wrench in some gears of categories. Now I don't want to gate keep but I being a stickler for these things I want to see what the folks on vgcollect think.

Metroidvania to me is purely a 2d platforming experience where the focus is on exploration and item progression. However with the souls like stat builds and combat being put into the mix I feel like we have a new genre that is part Metroidvania but something that does deserve its own permanent category.

MetroidSouls?SoulsTroid?SoulsVania? The important distinction is that stat builds and higher difficultly combat are weaved into the game causing a slower more deliberate experience because of how you have to interact with the enemies. The below games I think would qualify for the new category. Am I over thinking it, does it even matter. Sound off.

Death's Gambit
Salt and Sanctuary
Blasphemous
The Last Faith

[dhaabi]

"Metroidvania" is a phrase that describes games adopting action-adventure and platformer genres with an emphasis on non-linear exploration often through an interconnected web of rooms.

"Soulslike" or any of its contemporary phrases describes games adopting the action-RPG genre often with an emphasis on difficulty and play-and-learn observation alongside a variety of other systems (which may or may not all be present, which diminishes what this "genre" even is exactly) like the bonfire mechanic popularized by Dark Souls.

As one should presume from how my post is written, I'm of the firm opinion that these styles of games aren't spearheading any new genre that sets itself a part from others. They've merely incorporated specific mechanics into frames from much broader genres.

[redblaze57]

At this point I'm not sure what there's more of... Metal sub-genres, or Video game sub-genres.

Honestly trying to say a game that's "soul's like" and "Metroidvania" is it's own genre sounds just about as ridiculous as "Pirate Metal" being it's own genre.

[shfan]

Being a gamer of a similar age I'd have to say that video game genres are, and have been for probably 20+ years, functionally useless.

The classic wisdom is to use gameplay as the 'tell' as to what genre the game belongs to, with anything more precise than the two massive lump categories (action and strategy) either having more clearly identifiable gameplay elements (platformer, beat 'em up, shoot 'em up) or being an emulation of a real-life activity or game (sports, racing, gambling, board games). Now back in the day when every original idea which found an audience had several identical knock-offs (home computer versions of arcade games in the early 80s for instance) it was easy to do this, although several types of games failed to 'calcify' into genres through nobody's fault, there just weren't many games like 'that', meaning genres were never all-encompassing in the first place.

Then you have the passage of time, technological advancement and changing expectations. My favourite example is Super Mario Bros. vs Super Mario Odyssey - they're both platform games and part of the main Mario series. Do they play the same? Not even close. If games in the same genre in the same series don't even resemble each other then exactly how useful is the recommendation or comparison?

New genres are extremely rare, yet new types of game appear regularly, so why the disparity? Unless a game has a very specific focus then it's very difficult to group them together into that cohesive category. Most of the newer genres I can think of happened in the casual space when Big Fish Games were a thing - time management, hidden object etc.  A more recent example is 'bullet heaven' - Vampire Survivor clones, a very simplistic game pattern which has been nailed down accordingly.

Then you have dabbling/mixing within genres - elements of other games being added. Soulslikes/Soulsborne games started appearing after FROM Software's unexpected hits, no sooner to start being messed around with or some aspects (particularly bonfires and being able to reclaim your exp/status) being dropped into other types of games. Nothing stays still for long. Survival horror games, loved them back in the day, hence my tag, but I play very little SH these days, instead playing the TPS influenced games like later Resident Evils or Dead Space. Apparently some 2D games like Claire and Lone Survivor are survival horror. Really? Don't see it myself.

Then you've got the sheer amount of dialogue present in many games, you can't have hours worth of chatter in one game and no dialogue or cutscenes in another and them somehow be the same thing. The singularly useless term 'visual novel' gets bandied around a lot, yet many of these games aren't novels of any kind, they're just games with dialogue!

It's a mess. The whole idea of being able to say "it's like this" by using a term like 'platformer' is bunk, the only way to group games like Streets of Rage, for instance, is to drop loads of other terms and games in, like 'side scrolling' '2D' 'arcade style' 'co-op' and "like Final Fight/Captain Commando". You can't just say "beat 'em up" because apparently that includes everything from Kung Fu Master through to Vigilante through to Devil May sodding Cry and Tecmo Koei's Warriors series.

Nah, would heartily recommend against wading too deep into the murky waters of video game genres, nothing good down there..

[dhaabi]

Then you have the passage of time, technological advancement and changing expectations. My favourite example is Super Mario Bros. vs Super Mario Odyssey - they're both platform games and part of the main Mario series. Do they play the same? Not even close. If games in the same genre in the same series don't even resemble each other then exactly how useful is the recommendation or comparison?

This is like saying that Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. 3 differ because an overworld with nonlinear stage branching was introduced by the latter. Or that Super Mario World can't be comparable to the original game since it introduced stages with multiple exits. All of the games within the Super Mario series (whether they be 2D, 3D, or 3D open world) share the same core characteristics. They're all merely a product of their time which utilize modern technological advancements and play studies to shape their design while wanting to achieve various forms of gameplay.

If innovation never existed within creative outlets—not just games—then what kind of media we consume today would be vastly different than it is now.

It's a mess. The whole idea of being able to say "it's like this" by using a term like 'platformer' is bunk, the only way to group games like Streets of Rage, for instance, is to drop loads of other terms and games in, like 'side scrolling' '2D' 'arcade style' 'co-op' and "like Final Fight/Captain Commando". You can't just say "beat 'em up" because apparently that includes everything from Kung Fu Master through to Vigilante through to Devil May sodding Cry and Tecmo Koei's Warriors series.

Genres are meant to be broad overviews, which I think people sometimes forget. Subgenres and style classifications exist to group even more specific types of media. I'm sure that if you and I both had to list a musician within a broad genre like pop, we'd mention two seemingly polarizing examples.

[Cartagia]

Figured like this was a good place to roll around with this list that I've been thinking about: All Metroidvanias I've played, ranked:

• Hollow Knight
• Blasphemous II
• Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
• Control
• Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
• Batman: Arkham Asylum
• Metroid Prime Remastered
• Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin
• Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow
• Metroid Dread
• Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia
• Super Metroid
• Ori and the Blind Forest
• Blasphemous
• The Messenger
• Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
• Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night
• Guacamelee
• Metroid Prime (Original)
• Caslevania: Harmony of Dissonance
• Shantae and the Pirate's Curse
• Gato Roboto
• Shantae: Half-Genie Hero
• Yoku's Island Express
• Metroid

[marvelvscapcom2]

At this point I'm not sure what there's more of... Metal sub-genres, or Video game sub-genres.

Honestly trying to say a game that's "soul's like" and "Metroidvania" is it's own genre sounds just about as ridiculous as "Pirate Metal" being it's own genre.

I agree whole heartedly with this and other comments.  Glad someone finally said this. 


I mean at what point does the genre lose all meaning? If theirs gotta be entire threads arguing what is and what isnt metroidvania then it means 1 of 2 things. Either the genre is not well defined or isnt necessary at all to begin with.  Im gonna go with both.

 Metroidvania doesnt exist because those games arent original in genre nor unique in it.   And the definitions gamers use to describe what a Metroidvania even is always changes.  I mean now fps and 3rd person adventure games?  GTA vice city is a metroidvania.  I disregard the entire sub genre.

[sabby9378]

I think the term "Metroidvania" has gotten so broad it barely means anything anymore. Adding heavy RPG mechanics and slow combat changes the core experience. I'd be down for a new name, but "SoulsVania" sounds weird lol. Maybe "Action RPG Metroidvania" is enough? Or we just let people call it whatever and move on.

[Cartagia]

At this point I'm not sure what there's more of... Metal sub-genres, or Video game sub-genres.

Honestly trying to say a game that's "soul's like" and "Metroidvania" is it's own genre sounds just about as ridiculous as "Pirate Metal" being it's own genre.

I agree whole heartedly with this and other comments.  Glad someone finally said this. 


I mean at what point does the genre lose all meaning? If theirs gotta be entire threads arguing what is and what isnt metroidvania then it means 1 of 2 things. Either the genre is not well defined or isnt necessary at all to begin with.  Im gonna go with both.

 Metroidvania doesnt exist because those games arent original in genre nor unique in it.   And the definitions gamers use to describe what a Metroidvania even is always changes.  I mean now fps and 3rd person adventure games?  GTA vice city is a metroidvania.  I disregard the entire sub genre.

I don't understand why you are so dead-set against subgenres.  I don't see any issue having a term or category that represents a specific style or type of gameplay.  No different that calling different kinds of sports games "sports sims" vs "arcade sports".  Yeah they both revolve around sports, but they also have very different intents and design philosophies behind them.  And yeah, I'd say Pirate Metal is a thing.  Alestorm and Amon Amarth are both metal bands, but they are stylistically and thematically very different from each other.

[marvelvscapcom2]

At this point I'm not sure what there's more of... Metal sub-genres, or Video game sub-genres.

Honestly trying to say a game that's "soul's like" and "Metroidvania" is it's own genre sounds just about as ridiculous as "Pirate Metal" being it's own genre.

I agree whole heartedly with this and other comments.  Glad someone finally said this. 


I mean at what point does the genre lose all meaning? If theirs gotta be entire threads arguing what is and what isnt metroidvania then it means 1 of 2 things. Either the genre is not well defined or isnt necessary at all to begin with.  Im gonna go with both.

 Metroidvania doesnt exist because those games arent original in genre nor unique in it.   And the definitions gamers use to describe what a Metroidvania even is always changes.  I mean now fps and 3rd person adventure games?  GTA vice city is a metroidvania.  I disregard the entire sub genre.

I don't understand why you are so dead-set against subgenres.  I don't see any issue having a term or category that represents a specific style or type of gameplay.  No different that calling different kinds of sports games "sports sims" vs "arcade sports".  Yeah they both revolve around sports, but they also have very different intents and design philosophies behind them.  And yeah, I'd say Pirate Metal is a thing.  Alestorm and Amon Amarth are both metal bands, but they are stylistically and thematically very different from each other.

Not sure another instance ive ever displayed distain over a sub genre on here.

Tldr - Metroid is not unique enough to define a genre. And metroidvania is a poorly defined concept that people fight over all the time. Mostly because its unnecessary.

Long - Not to mention metroidvania isnt a sub genre. Its a sub-sub genre. I love sub genres so long as they are well defined and practical and "metroidvania" is quite frankly niether. Which is why anywhere its mentioned people sit around and argue of what it even is.  When 90 percent of what people talk about with a sub genre is defining what it even is. It doesn't need to exist. Because its just a terrible poorlly defined faux category.  The little nuances people come up with to seperate metroid from anything else are for 1. Not even original to metroid.  And 2. Not warranting a classification in itself.

For example.  3rd person shooter is a sub genre.  Shooter is a genre.  Metroid prime is a first person shooter. Thats its sub genre.  "Metroidvania" is a sub-sub genre and is about as vague as can be.  Doom is more like metroid prime then Super Metroid. And I can draw 50 more similarities to Mega Man with Metroid than I can to castlevania itself. 

What has been defined to me as metroidvania is

"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"

But of course this defintion changes depending on who you talk to. Because again. The genre is not well defined and is made up as we go. But if we do adhere to this.


Ok so like

1. Pretty much every top down Zelda game and every LTTP clone ever made.  (Singular map with web like rooms that require keys to access doors and special weapons to beat specific bosses. Also predates Metroid)

2. Grand theft auto vice city (singular map.  Must complete missions and aquire suits to access missions which eventually unlock starfish island and previous inaccessible parts of the map which you cant access unless you aquire not only special weapons, cars, tanks, or even suits)

3. God of War 2018

4. Elden Ring

5. Elder Scrolls and Fable franchises

6. Mega Man - plays similar to Metroid. Linear. Move backwards through corridor levels. Aquire suits to access new levels. Need powers to beat certain bosses. Side scroller cannon shooter)

7. Gris (gotta backtrack to aquire orbs that open constelation path ways and you cant proceed without doing such. You also earn new colors through exploration. Beating the game is impossible without building these star paths.

8. Super Mario 64 (the levels are interconnected to the main room which is toadstool castle. Making it technically one giant level design. In which to access rooms. You must collect stars. And often times need to obtain the flying ability to even get said stars. Metal mario ability to access others)


The problem isnt with sub genres. Its with this sub genre. For example you have Batman Arkham Knight as a metroidvania.  Control?  I mean why not TOTK and Infamous?  The first time I seen a forum call Control a metroidvania I had known it went too far.  It lost all meaning that day. At least before it was delegated to basically side scrolling 2D platformers.  I just wish it was called "metroid elements" rather than making a whole genre. That I could grasp.


Metroid prime is about as much a metroidvania as Call Of Duty Zombies.


I do agree on certain genres being awesome to classify. For example JRPG vs RPG. Nu metal vs metal.  So I do enjoy classifying things. It's one of my favorite things. Even with sites like this.  I enjoy categories. I just want it to be clear. Metroidvania is never clear to me.

[Cartagia]

"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"

That's pretty much it, except most would say abilities not upgrades.

The reason most of your examples are not Metroidvania is that they are not progress-gated by abilities.  Getting a key is not getting an ability.  Getting collectibles to unlock an area (like Mario 64's stars) is not an ability.  Unlocking areas through story beats (GTA) is not an ability.  Elden Ring and the Souls-games have no abilities.  You just... progress.

A Metroidvania might have a platform you need to get on to advance the story in the first room that is just out of reach until you get the double jump and have to come back later.  Having just replayed Metroid Prime, it is 100% a Metroidvania.  I was shocked at how well it moved that formula to first person.  That's how Arkham Asylum works, even though its 3rd person.  But Arkham City is completely open from the start.  Progress is hindered by story beats, and the abilities only open secrets, not progress.

TotK isn't a Metroidvania because after the tutorial you can do anything in any order.  It has no ability gates, because you have all of your abilities, but there are a couple of Zelda's that are arguable - namely Link Between Worlds, since you can get the abilities s at your own pace, and they aren't locked behind story beats.

Can't speak to infamous because I haven't played it.

[marvelvscapcom2]

"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"

That's pretty much it, except most would say abilities not upgrades.

The reason most of your examples are not Metroidvania is that they are not progress-gated by abilities.  Getting a key is not getting an ability.  Getting collectibles to unlock an area (like Mario 64's stars) is not an ability.  Unlocking areas through story beats (GTA) is not an ability.  Elden Ring and the Souls-games have no abilities.  You just... progress.

A Metroidvania might have a platform you need to get on to advance the story in the first room that is just out of reach until you get the double jump and have to come back later.  Having just replayed Metroid Prime, it is 100% a Metroidvania.  I was shocked at how well it moved that formula to first person.  That's how Arkham Asylum works, even though its 3rd person.  But Arkham City is completely open from the start.  Progress is hindered by story beats, and the abilities only open secrets, not progress.

TotK isn't a Metroidvania because after the tutorial you can do anything in any order.  It has no ability gates, because you have all of your abilities, but there are a couple of Zelda's that are arguable - namely Link Between Worlds, since you can get the abilities s at your own pace, and they aren't locked behind story beats.

Can't speak to infamous because I haven't played it.

So basically you gotta get abilities but in a non guided, non linear way? So for example Jak and Daxter wouldnt count because you gotta aquire the abilitiy to use the hover craft to fly over the lava as part of the story. Not from spontaneous exploration? Ok. That makes it clearer, abilities is certainly less vague then "upgrades" but I just wish more people were as clear with the defining of it.

I feel under your definition both Doom and Mega Man and especially echoes of wisdom would qualify as you need abilities to advance. I remember in mega man franchise certain bosses are unbeatable without aquiring an abilitiy prior.  Although I could be recollecting wrong. Its been a while.  And with echoes of wisdom you gotta find the echo abilities spontaneously and they open passages later. Its organic in the sense.  Let me know if im missing something that seperates those games. 

Either way It feels better defined now with the definition you gave. Upgrades and keys could be thousands of games. Open exploration ability gates is much more narrowed down.

[Cartagia]

Mega Man is stage based, and you don't need specific boss powers to advance, so it wouldn't qualify.  Doom is also stage based.

I haven't played Echoes of Wisdom, so I can't speak to that one.

[undertakerprime]

At this point I'm not sure what there's more of... Metal sub-genres, or Video game sub-genres.

Honestly trying to say a game that's "soul's like" and "Metroidvania" is it's own genre sounds just about as ridiculous as "Pirate Metal" being it's own genre.

I agree whole heartedly with this and other comments.  Glad someone finally said this. 


I mean at what point does the genre lose all meaning? If theirs gotta be entire threads arguing what is and what isnt metroidvania then it means 1 of 2 things. Either the genre is not well defined or isnt necessary at all to begin with.  Im gonna go with both.

 Metroidvania doesnt exist because those games arent original in genre nor unique in it.   And the definitions gamers use to describe what a Metroidvania even is always changes.  I mean now fps and 3rd person adventure games?  GTA vice city is a metroidvania.  I disregard the entire sub genre.

I don't understand why you are so dead-set against subgenres.  I don't see any issue having a term or category that represents a specific style or type of gameplay.  No different that calling different kinds of sports games "sports sims" vs "arcade sports".  Yeah they both revolve around sports, but they also have very different intents and design philosophies behind them.  And yeah, I'd say Pirate Metal is a thing.  Alestorm and Amon Amarth are both metal bands, but they are stylistically and thematically very different from each other.

Not sure another instance ive ever displayed distain over a sub genre on here.

Tldr - Metroid is not unique enough to define a genre. And metroidvania is a poorly defined concept that people fight over all the time. Mostly because its unnecessary.

Long - Not to mention metroidvania isnt a sub genre. Its a sub-sub genre. I love sub genres so long as they are well defined and practical and "metroidvania" is quite frankly niether. Which is why anywhere its mentioned people sit around and argue of what it even is.  When 90 percent of what people talk about with a sub genre is defining what it even is. It doesn't need to exist. Because its just a terrible poorlly defined faux category.  The little nuances people come up with to seperate metroid from anything else are for 1. Not even original to metroid.  And 2. Not warranting a classification in itself.

For example.  3rd person shooter is a sub genre.  Shooter is a genre.  Metroid prime is a first person shooter. Thats its sub genre.  "Metroidvania" is a sub-sub genre and is about as vague as can be.  Doom is more like metroid prime then Super Metroid. And I can draw 50 more similarities to Mega Man with Metroid than I can to castlevania itself. 

What has been defined to me as metroidvania is

"You unlock upgrades that allow access to areas previously unavailable and there is one singular map that requires backtracking as part of the story and gameplay"

But of course this defintion changes depending on who you talk to. Because again. The genre is not well defined and is made up as we go. But if we do adhere to this.


Ok so like

1. Pretty much every top down Zelda game and every LTTP clone ever made.  (Singular map with web like rooms that require keys to access doors and special weapons to beat specific bosses. Also predates Metroid)

2. Grand theft auto vice city (singular map.  Must complete missions and aquire suits to access missions which eventually unlock starfish island and previous inaccessible parts of the map which you cant access unless you aquire not only special weapons, cars, tanks, or even suits)

3. God of War 2018

4. Elden Ring

5. Elder Scrolls and Fable franchises

6. Mega Man - plays similar to Metroid. Linear. Move backwards through corridor levels. Aquire suits to access new levels. Need powers to beat certain bosses. Side scroller cannon shooter)

7. Gris (gotta backtrack to aquire orbs that open constelation path ways and you cant proceed without doing such. You also earn new colors through exploration. Beating the game is impossible without building these star paths.

8. Super Mario 64 (the levels are interconnected to the main room which is toadstool castle. Making it technically one giant level design. In which to access rooms. You must collect stars. And often times need to obtain the flying ability to even get said stars. Metal mario ability to access others)


The problem isnt with sub genres. Its with this sub genre. For example you have Batman Arkham Knight as a metroidvania.  Control?  I mean why not TOTK and Infamous?  The first time I seen a forum call Control a metroidvania I had known it went too far.  It lost all meaning that day. At least before it was delegated to basically side scrolling 2D platformers.  I just wish it was called "metroid elements" rather than making a whole genre. That I could grasp.


Metroid prime is about as much a metroidvania as Call Of Duty Zombies.


I do agree on certain genres being awesome to classify. For example JRPG vs RPG. Nu metal vs metal.  So I do enjoy classifying things. It's one of my favorite things. Even with sites like this.  I enjoy categories. I just want it to be clear. Metroidvania is never clear to me.

Yeah, there seems to be different definitions of what constitutes a Metroidvania, and IMO it seems to have changed over time.

Originally, I understood a Metroidvania as a literal combination of Metroid and SotN: a game that plays like Metroid (side-scroller with the power ups unlocking new areas and backtracking) but includes RPG, stat-building elements like SotN.
But later the definition seemed to start encompassing only games with Metroid elements and no SotN RPG-esque stat-building, which IMO made the Metroidvania label misleading. Many games with that label are not a combination, they’re just Metroid-likes.

Bottom line is, a subgenre shouldn’t be so loosely-defined and open to interpretation.

Figured like this was a good place to roll around with this list that I've been thinking about: All Metroidvanias I've played, ranked:

• Hollow Knight
• Blasphemous II
• Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow
• Control
• Castlevania: Symphony of the Night
• Batman: Arkham Asylum
• Metroid Prime Remastered
• Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin
• Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow
• Metroid Dread
• Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia
• Super Metroid
• Ori and the Blind Forest
• Blasphemous
• The Messenger
• Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
• Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night
• Guacamelee
• Metroid Prime (Original)
• Caslevania: Harmony of Dissonance
• Shantae and the Pirate's Curse
• Gato Roboto
• Shantae: Half-Genie Hero
• Yoku's Island Express
• Metroid

This gives me a good list of games I should try, thanks.

If I was going to rank the ones I’ve played it might go something like:

Super Metroid
Castlevania Symphony of the Night
Blasphemous 2
Blasphemous
Batman Arkham Asylum
Metroid Zero Mission
Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night
Castlevania Aria of Sorrow
Metroid Prime
Castlevania Portrait of Ruin
Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow
Metroid Fusion
Castlevania Order of Ecclesia
Castlevania Harmony of Dissonance
Metroid Prime 2
Hollow Knight
Timespinner
Shantae and the Pirate’s Curse
Blaster Master
Shantae: Risky’s Revenge
Axiom Verge
Castlevania: Circle of the Moon
Iconoclasts
Metroid
Metroid II:Return of Samus
Castlevania 2: Simon’s Quest

No rating because not enough play time to judge:
Salt and Sanctuary
The Last Faith

[dhaabi]

Figured like this was a good place to roll around with this list that I've been thinking about: All Metroidvanias I've played, ranked:

I came across the trailer for Laika: Through the Blood the other day and have been meaning to ask what someone like you who's a fan of these types of games thinks about it. I generally don't play these kinds of games, but it seems somewhat unique from an outsider's perspective. I also just realized after skimming through its Steam store page description that it's being teased as the first "Motorvania."