Colon use discussion

[telly]

I've noticed that a lot of the listings for "The Elder Scrolls Online" have been changed to "The Elder Scrolls: Online." It was when I made entries for the new gold editions of the game that I noticed this.

Is there any reason why that colon is there? It's not listed with a colon anywhere else that I can find, and is called "The Elder Scrolls Online"  both in the actual game on PC and on Zenimax's website, where they also refer to the Tamriel Unlimited console release specifically as "The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited."

Some examples
https://vgcollect.com/item/117290 - the entry I just made
https://vgcollect.com/item/78623
https://vgcollect.com/item/98876

[Flashback2012]

I've noticed that a lot of the listings for "The Elder Scrolls Online" have been changed to "The Elder Scrolls: Online." It was when I made entries for the new gold editions of the game that I noticed this.

Is there any reason why that colon is there? It's not listed with a colon anywhere else that I can find, and is called "The Elder Scrolls Online"  both in the actual game on PC and on Zenimax's website, where they also refer to the Tamriel Unlimited console release specifically as "The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited."

Some examples
https://vgcollect.com/item/117290 - the entry I just made
https://vgcollect.com/item/78623
https://vgcollect.com/item/98876

This came up a while back and the best I can recollect is that the wording of the title indicates that "Online" for this game is a subtitle and therefore subject to a break via a colon. The reasoning is that the word "Online" doesn't appear as part of the title but on it's own line in a separate font and font size. Phonetically it rolls off the tongue better when saying "The Elder Scrolls Online" as opposed to the pause with "The Elder Scrolls: Online" but I think that might be minor semantics. Here's another example...

https://vgcollect.com/item/93595

No edit to the name was made, the creator apparently felt that "Kartz" in their mind was the subtitle. It rolls off the tongue better with "Madagascar Kartz" but one has to wonder if it's not supposed to have that slight pause (and thus the needed colon to indicate the subtitle). To go one further (and to highlight a recurring issue with naming) is the same game but with the "full" title...

https://vgcollect.com/item/42855

There's been enough chatter about adding in the company names to the title like such as Disney/Pixar or Disney's, Nickelodeon, Marvel's, etc. Once you get past that hangup, then there's the whole title vs. subtitle. One might argue that instead of it being DreamWorks Madagascar Kartz, it might possibly be DreamWorks: Madagascar: Kartz because all three words use separate fonts. I know adding in the company name has brought contention before but that's a separate argument so we can kick the can down the road on that one. 

[telly]

I don't know which way we should go with. I see the font differences and that makes sense, but at the same time the game is not listed with a colon within the actual game itself, nor is it referred like that by the developers of the game.

And then we get to something like Tamriel Unlimited, which is as a subtitle with a colon. Is that a subtitle of the subtitle?

Just my thoughts personally: I'm tempted to go with no subtitle/colon because how a game is stylized or represented on the box isn't necessarily how the game is actually named. The box art is ultimately stylized to be attractive and appealing, and I think it's a false assumption to suppose that that's how the game is called as well.

And I think a corollary to this point is Phantasy Star Online,  which has "online" on a separate line... but has same font. It's got a piece of both things you mentioned, flashback, but does not have a colon in the DB. Or an even better example, Sonic Colors, which has "colors" on a different line, different font, entirely different colors, but is not listed as Sonic: Colors. Sonic Boom is another excellent example.

[tripredacus]

When to use colon with games where Online is in their title: almost always.

Examples where Online is part of the name: Ultima Online, Anarchy Online, Sword Art Online

Even Phantasy Star should have the colon. Many titles are not formatted properly in the db currently. This is related to the Disney/Pixar thing. With exception to "The" issue, titles should be formatted based on the cover, with alternate renderings in alt title or in description.

[telly]

I really have to disagree that Online should almost always have a colon. I personally can't think of a single online game or franchise that is referred to or titled with a colon on anywhere except for this site. Some of the games that I think of are GTA Online... Pokemon Trading Card Game Online... I mean, look at these lists of online games: absolutely none of the games that have "online" in the title have a colon in them. Doesn't that say something about this issue?  It seems to me like all of the games with online in the title have it as "part of the name."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_multiplayer_online_games
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_massively_multiplayer_online_games

Even if I were to concede that there are examples where online is a subtitle and others where it's part of the name. How do we go about determining this? What is the actual rationale for why "online" should sometimes be referred to with a subtitle and sometimes not? I see no meaningful difference between Elder Scrolls Online and any of the other games mentioned above, or the ones you mentioned (Ultima, Anarchy).

The way the title is represented on the box is a difference, certainly, but I've already provided examples to illustrate that the box art is not a reliable method for naming a game's subtitles. The Disney/Pixar thing is not a subtitle, and is visualized well on the box. Subtitles in games are not well visualized on box art, because colons are not present, and the different colors/styles used on a box are simply not reliable references. Again, to support this, I'm wondering why should Sonic Colors or Sonic Boom not have a colon then? It has all the markings of a subtitle; different colors, one line lower, different font...

So, if we did need some way to determine the subtitle of a game, why not used the official name? That's going to give us an unembellished, definitive answer that the box art simply cannot provide. It makes perfect sense to me at least, and it's simply not debatable that ESO is officially named with no colon on both the game's website or on Zenimax or Bethesda's website. Given that information, I think that's pretty convincing evidence that "online" is actually part of the name for this release. And I think that absolutely trumps the box art because the official name is right here in front of us: why should we ignore that?

And I have to add that there is nothing in the Style Guide that denotes if the title should be based on the box or not, and provides no designation to how we determine a subtitle or not. I feel like it should be mentioned in the style guide.

[tripredacus]

So, if we did need some way to determine the subtitle of a game, why not used the official name? That's going to give us an unembellished, definitive answer that the box art simply cannot provide. It makes perfect sense to me at least, and it's simply not debatable that ESO is officially named with no colon on both the game's website or on Zenimax or Bethesda's website. Given that information, I think that's pretty convincing evidence that "online" is actually part of the name for this release. And I think that absolutely trumps the box art because the official name is right here in front of us: why should we ignore that?

It is not ignoring the official name. VGC is a database that tracks products, not games.

Online added to game titles goes back to when multiplayer only games first appeared. There was "this game" and then there was "this game: online" and the usage of the term is the same as back then. It is not "The Elder Scrolls" is it "The Elder Scrolls: Online" which also falls in line with all of the other games in The Elder Scrolls series. There are many examples where front cover title differs from spine title, title on the game media itself (disc or cart), title on the game's actual title screen, title in the copyright text/manual and certainly on official and fan websites.

So what we can do, is have the game title in the db based on our rules for categorization, put alternate names in alt-name and any other different naming used into the description. Perhaps some day we can have fields for all these different types of names, and then allow the users to choose which one is the default for them. So that way, if you prefer the game name to be prominent and not the actual item's name, you can choose to do that.

[telly]

If I may ask then, when then is Ultima Online not with a colon? It was one of the examples you mentioned, but obviously Ultima has been a series long beforehand.

We certainly can have it this way, and if these are the rules we decide on, then I obviously have no argument anymore. But I would be so bold to say that this makes our site LESS accurate, not more accurate. These games simply have the wrong titles now; we are changing them to conform with our rules, and it's obvious that it flies in the face of everything that's already out there. That just doesn't sit right with me, which is why I've been so vocal about it, lol.

And I would really appreciate it if this was put into the style guide as well. I think these should be part of the guide because people may not know of the rules and make edits to these game names without knowing.

[tripredacus]

Ultima Online's title is represented as a single title. The Elder Scrolls: Online is not. I don't think we are ignoring anything, as long as the alternate names are recorded. Personally, I still think that more generic type names for each should be used, and that the full name as represented by the packaging should be an alternate name.* But we can't pick and choose which way to have the name used in the main title. For any cataloging, the naming process has to be standardized the best way possible. Prior to my (admin) time here, it was decided by the community that full cover names need to be used in some cases (the Disney case) and so then this means this must be the rule for everything.

But at least we have the ability to put the other names on the item page.

*note from above, this is solely referring to the database side. It must be clear to anyone else reading this that the user/collector can (and will) think in totally different terms and that is fine. In the future, it would be nice if the user could choose what type of name is displayed when they view their collection, or possibly when they browse/search the site. Same goes for other preferences, such as people who would prefer to see controllers/accessories default picture be loose instead of their retail packaging.

[ignition365]

To clarify, then should The Elder Scrolls Travels: Shadowkey be Elder Scrolls, The: Travels: Shadowkey?

[tripredacus]

It seems correct on the entry already: https://vgcollect.com/item/15439

The cover has it as The Elder Scrolls Travels: Shadowkey.
Our writing would be Elder Scrolls Travels, The: Shadowkey.

[telly]

Ok, so it seems like with Ultima Online and TES Shadowkey that it's pretty obvious we can't add colons to the name bases on the underlying series that came before it. Now the argument is that colons are put into games' titles when they are represented that way on the box.

Again, I have already provided my argument to why the title of the game should not be based on what the box art depicts. I still haven't heard a response to why Sonic Colors should not be called Sonic: Colors or why Sonic Boom is not Sonic: Boom.

Here are some other examples for you all to consider to back up that point:

How about the name on the side of the cases? The Elder Scrolls Online has no colon on the side of the cases and all the text looks the same as well. Which title do we go with then, with these two conflicting names?

How about Metroid Prime? If the box art tells us how the name should be represented, does that mean the name should be Metroid: Prime? Is the sequel now Metroid: Prime 2: Echoes?

How about Donkey Kong Country on the SNES? Should the name actually be Donkey Kong: Country? Is the remake on the Wii now called Donkey Kong: Country: Returns?

A final one, Mega Man Battle Network 6. Is it Mega Man: Battle Network 6: Cybeast Falzar?

And on the topic of Mega Man, a ton of games on the GC and GBA have no space between Mega and Man! So shouldn't the titles dor these games be Megaman? We know that the official name is "Mega Man" but because it's not represented that way on the box, why not Megaman?

The ONLY way that we can determine whether a game has a subtitle/colon or not is by the official name that the game was given. The box art is not accurate or reliable, and it should not be used.

[booton]

I brought up an issue similar to this a long time ago, nothing was actually done about it though.

[telly]

It is interesting that Foxhack did agree and said he was going to edit the listing to remove the colon

[tripredacus]

I still haven't heard a response to why Sonic Colors should not be called Sonic: Colors or why Sonic Boom is not Sonic: Boom.
How about Metroid Prime?
How about Donkey Kong Country on the SNES?
A final one, Mega Man Battle Network 6.

From me, it is because they should be used in those cases.

And on the topic of Mega Man, a ton of games on the GC and GBA have no space between Mega and Man! So shouldn't the titles dor these games be Megaman? We know that the official name is "Mega Man" but because it's not represented that way on the box, why not Megaman?

In these cases, such as Mega Man X6 on PlayStation, the title should be Megaman X6, and have Mega Man X6 in alt-title. I know that it is Mega Man, and it says Mega Man in the copyright info and maybe it has Mega Man on the spine, but that is not what is on the cover. Having the other name in alt-name will solve any search issues. It can be put into the Description field that the name has no space on the cover. This is also why so many people will type it without the space, it is not because it is some comon typo, but it is because Capcom has actually used that name on their products.

But am I saying we should all go and change the Mega Man and DKC and Metroid Prime entries? No, there is other work that is more important than having to pretty up everything. If/when we get the different name fields, then that would definately be the time to go about doing that.

[telly]

People say Megaman because the name flows that way phonetically. No one that I can think of spells it Megaman because they looked at it on the box and saw it was represented that way. They spell it Megaman because we as English speakers don't put a space between Mega and Man.

Prior to my (admin) time here, it was decided by the community that full cover names need to be used in some cases (the Disney case) and so then this means this must be the rule for everything.

I don't think that follows at all. Why must it be the case for everything? The subtitles and possessive markers are two totally different pieces of a game's title. One is the full cover name (the letters and words that are on the cover). The other is an interpretation of what is a subtitle and what is not depending on the STYLE of the full cover name. There is no reason why they can't have different approaches; one has the information right in front of you, the other one requires more info to be accurate.

Also, I took a look at the Disney thread, and pretty much read every post. I'm actually seeing the exact opposite of what you're saying. I'm seeing a lot of people agreeing that the Disney prefix should NOT be in the game's title if it's not the official name, or if it's not commonly referred to in that way.

Some posts that I thought were interesting
Foxhack: "I usually go by what's used on various sites like Wikipedia or the official game sites." (Post 6 reiterated in post 11)
Scott: Originally made the individual decision to add Disney's, but was leaning towards removing it (Post 3)
B@C: "Yeah I could understand and agree with dropping Disney." (Post 7)
Soera: Games should be titled based on the common name (Post 10)
Argyle: Disney/ dreamworks should not necessarily be part of the cover, the common name should win out (Post 27)
Tripredacus: The Disney title prefix should carry over to other prefixes (dreamworks) (Post 18)
Desocietas "It's something that's been brought up in the staff forum as well and a consensus hasn't been reached yet." (Post 22)
Tripredacus: "So it is made aware, this is what I think about the matter... Game titles should be the common name." which is what you have said already in this discussion (post 26)
Flashback: Agreeing with Tripredacus that the common name is probably the best way to name things (Post 29)

https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,4715.25.html

I know it's rude of me to quote people like this, and I'm sorry guys  People's opinions could certainly have changed from these posts, and I am not trying to put words in people's mouth. All I'm trying to show here is at the time of that thread, it's clear that there was a LOT of disagreement about if this is the right way to go about doing things with Disney. And, it's never mentioned once that this method of naming should carry over to a game's subtitles, so I don't know where that came about or when it was discussed other than here.

And if there is not consensus on the Disney thing, I see no reason why we should be changing the names of these subtitles either. So, can we get some other input on this from some other users? Is there a consensus among users and admins, because I really don't think it is. This is a potentially huge change to the basic structure of the database, and it affects easily hundreds of games, if not more. I'd love to hear some more input than just me and tripredacus going back and forth.