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General and Gaming => Off Topic => Topic started by: kamikazekeeg on December 15, 2017, 06:41:03 am

Title: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 15, 2017, 06:41:03 am
If not clear enough, this thread is just for people who have watched the movie, know its secrets, and want to talk about it.  So all the spoilers, don't get spoiled, SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS.

As this was brought up due to wanting clarification on opposing views on the movie, I'll start it off with the only serious complaint I had with the movie, and that is Finn and Rose.  This section of the movie when they go to that planet to find the code breaker goes on way too long.  It's all very unimportant to the overall plot and really the whole plot line leads to nothing as the shady code breaker turns out to be shady, and actually end up ruining the escape plan.  I could see it as an idea of good intentions gone wrong, but it's like if that wasn't gonna pan out anyways, they should've shortened it up.  I know it was to create more time to build up the weird Rose/Finn relationship that doesn't work, even if they work well off each other, but it's kinda the low point of the plot and just seemed like a way to get Finn to do something.  I mean come on, she falls in love with him in under literally 24 hours? Meh.

The other minor complaint I have is why was the escape plan seemingly kept secret, leading to Po committing mutiny, because he wasn't told how the plan worked?  It makes no sense.

Otherwise I'd like to know what people who didn't like the movie thought.  I'm frankly baffled by anyone who says there was anything in this that was worse than the Prequels.  BikingJahuty brought it up in the other thread, I've seen comments in a review say it, and I want to see if anyone else shares this view and if they can actually justify it.  I know what the complaints likely are, dealing with Snoke, Finn/Rose, Rey's parents, and some pacing/plot, I can see where they could rub people wrong, though I think most of it still works, but I think objectively, there's no way this film as a whole or any of its parts, make it worse than anything in those movies.  It's better acted, better visuals, some frankly downright incredible scenes, there's a lot that works...

You look at Jar Jar, and you say to me with a straight face, that something in this movie, is worse than him.  I DARE YOU!

(https://orig00.deviantart.net/2d6e/f/2013/284/2/f/jar_jar_binks_png_by_biebersays-d6q12yz.png)
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 15, 2017, 10:35:35 am
So I began writing my assessment of The Last Jedi, when I got about two paragraphs in and quickly realized how difficult it was for me to articulate what I even liked or did not like about it. There were definitely parts that I loved, but almost in equal measure, things I hated about these same parts. And these aren't just unimportant parts, no, these are major parts in the movie such as the Snoke/Rey/Kylo confrontation in Snoke's throne room, Rey's "training" with Luke on Octu, the whole "we're running out of fuel and time" ship chase, and the final confrontation between Kylo and Luke. What I find funny is that the whole subplot with Fin and Rose is that it's something that bothered me far less than how much it seems to bother others, but I still understand why people really don't like it.

When I read the comments of people online about The Last Jedi, both positive and negative, I seem to agree with them and they resonate with me, even when these opinions are at odds with one another. Unless I am forgetting something I don't think I've been this at odds with or confused about how I felt about a movie ever. My point is that I really need to let this movie sink in and process more, as well as rewatch it again without the hype and super high expectations I went in with. Until then I will suspend my thorough analysis and opinion of this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 15, 2017, 02:50:07 pm
So I began writing my assessment of The Last Jedi, when I got about two paragraphs in and quickly realized how difficult it was for me to articulate what I even liked or did not like about it. There were definitely parts that I loved, but almost in equal measure, things I hated about these same parts. And these aren't just unimportant parts, no, these are major parts in the movie such as the Snoke/Rey/Kylo confrontation in Snoke's throne room, Rey's "training" with Luke on Octu, the whole "we're running out of fuel and time" ship chase, and the final confrontation between Kylo and Luke. What I find funny is that the whole subplot with Fin and Rose is that it's something that bothered me far less than how much it seems to bother others, but I still understand why people really don't like it.

When I read the comments of people online about The Last Jedi, both positive and negative, I seem to agree with them and they resonate with me, even when these opinions are at odds with one another. Unless I am forgetting something I don't think I've been this at odds with or confused about how I felt about a movie ever. My point is that I really need to let this movie sink in and process more, as well as rewatch it again without the hype and super high expectations I went in with. Until then I will suspend my thorough analysis and opinion of this movie.

That's totally cool.  Didn't mean to make it feel like I was putting you on the spot if it came off that way, I was just overall very curious to see opposing views on the movie.  When I see it again, I'll be going in with a little less hype and I'm curious to see how it holds up, to see if it still works as well as it did with the first showing.

I do think the reaction from people comes a lot from fan theory and expectations.  People had built up Snoke and Rey's parents so much, that when it took a swerve, people were really broken by it.  Definitely take a look at how it works within the plot, because I think it's really pretty good and is a great way to separate it from simply following the path of the old Trilogy, which was a big complaint of The Force Awakens for people.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 15, 2017, 09:42:52 pm
I talked about this movie A LOT with various various people throughout today and being able to talk with them and articulate how I felt and see my own feelings in their opinions on the Last Jedi really helped me hone in on how I really feel about this movie. But before I get into that, I still stand by my statement that I won't be able to fully describe how I feel about this movie in relation to the whole franchise until this movie has been out for a while and I've rewatched it, probably more than once. I did the same thing with Force Awakens which I had a very positive reaction too when I saw it, but it wasn't until probably last summer when I felt comfortable calling it the third best Star Wars film I've seen. But anyhow, here is my current feelings about The Last Jedi.

Overall, I really did not like this movie. My biggest complaint is how this movie was essentially the undoing of everything that the Force Awakens set up as being important and interesting and either destroyed it, trivialized it, or ignored it. I'll start with Snoke. Snoke was a very enigmatic character and obviously someone of great importance since he was the "Supreme Leader" of the First Order. I wanted to know who he was, what he was capable of, and how he became the leader of the First Order. The Last Jedi showed us a little bit of his power, but ignored everything else and just killed him, mind you in a very poorly written way. He was surrounded by his guards who didn't notice a lightsaber rotating on its own to ignite right into him. Worse than that, he just got done saying how he knew Kylo Ren's mind like a map, and even manipulated him and Rey into communicating and wanting to meet again. Yet, he seemed to be completely oblivious to Ren's ambition to overthrow him which led to his death. Essentially whoever Snoke was or wasn't doesn't matter now because he's fucking dead.

My other huge complaint on how this movie shit all over the Force Awakens and the interesting things it set up to be answered and explained in future films was Rey's unnaturally force abilities and the fact that she seems perfect at everything. I always hated the Mary Sue arguments that people made about The Force Awakens and this movie did nothing to address this, in fact it pretty much established she is just a Mary Sue for reasons. Part of this was the movie's explaination of her parents, which I feel like the jury is still out on, but it wouldn't surprise me if what Kylo was telling her was the truth and her parents were just junkies that sold her for their next fix. I will fully admit I was hoping Rey's parents were some important, established characters, or that she was born of the force like Anakin, but saying her parents were nobodies was incredibly unsatisfying and didn't explain anything about why she is so powerful. Before I movie on, I also wanted to say how ridiculous it was that Rey, whom weeks ago never even knew what the force was nor had ever used a lightsaber is able to best Luke in a duel and also train to the point where she is taking down Pretorean guards and going toe to toe with Kylo. It really diminished the quality of her character which is a damn shame because she was my favorite Star Wars character leading up to this movie.

My other major complaint about this movie was its poor writing and how it handled nearly every character in this movie. I already talked about Rey, but I feel like a character that suffered equally was Kylo going from a very complex, flawed and conflicted antagonist to generic bad guy. They turned Poe from a heroic pilot to a cocky, impulsive teenager; Phasma might as well have not been in the film, I already talked about Snoke, Finn and Rose were just there with no development, and so on. The only character that seemed to go anywhere was Leia who I thought was done well in this movie. And then there is Luke.

I really liked how they turned Luke into a broken down, burned out hermit who wanted nothing to do with anyone, especially with training Rey, however my issue with him had less to do with his character in this film, but more what was done to his character. His death particularly was extremely unsatisfying as it seemed that he simply died because he got tired after doing his force projection, making him the only Star Wars character ever to die from using too much force. If he was just going to die anyways I would have much rather him use the X-Wing that is shown submerged next to his island to have actually gone to that salt planet at the end and actually fight Kylo in person instead of being a hologram that dodged laser blasts and lightsabers. I know this was to buy the resistance time to escape, but I feel like this scene could have been way better and it would have been more emotional and impactful for Luke to die in combat with his former student than to die from exhaustion half way across the galaxy. I also hated how all they showed of him and why him and Kylo had their falling out was a brief scene that they showed thee times with only slight variations each time. I also thought it was stupid how Luke, who had matured and grown so much in the original trilogy and would never contemplate just killing someone because they showed signs of going to the dark side, tried doing it and to his nephew especially. For the love of god he tried turning Vader back to the light after Vader had spent the last 20 years killing countless people and enslaving the galaxy for the empire. WTF....

I could go on and on, but these are by far my biggest gripes about this movie. And to be honest I didn't hate the movie, and during the long run time I felt entertained for most of it, but unfortunately this movie was incredibly shallow as if it were a Michael Bay Transformers movie rather than a Star Wars movie. It was just mindless, shallow entertainment for the most part that used its source material to get some good reactions throughout, but coupled with almost every good thing about this movie was it being flat out taken from you or revealed it wasn't as good as you thought it was. This movie was a freakin bomb that not only was not great on it's own, but damaged some of the other Star Wars movies as well do to its disrespect and lack of understanding of the source material before it.

I want to rewatch this movie soon and maybe see something about it I missed and will dramatically improve my opinion of it, but as is it is currently competing with Attack of the Clones as the worst Star Wars movie I've ever seen.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 15, 2017, 10:47:30 pm
I agree that we did need more on Snoke, but I think his death was pretty well done.  Snoke was essentially a red herring.  He was the puppet behind turning Kylo Ren, but this story is very much about the problems of Masters, of Jedi and Sith, and we see how Luke failed his student, which lead to him turning, and Snoke being a Sith, is just there to treat Kylo like crap all the time.  Kylo's conflicted ideas is what leads him to turn on Snoke and I think goes to show that Snoke was just being far too overconfident, much like Luke who thought he could bring the Jedi back, before getting a dose of realism that the ways of the old Jedi just don't work and their overconfidence lead to their downfall, as seen with the Prequels.  This story isn't about Snoke and his plans for the galaxy, it's about Kylo Ren's rise and what I assume will be his fall.  The good thing about a trilogy, is that I feel like they could start the opening of the next one with Kylo's involvement with Snoke, explain him a little more and fill in the missing gap pretty easily.

I couldn't disagree anymore with you on Rey.  I think her use in the movie is great also.  She's anything, but a Mary Sue.  She makes mistakes, she's inexperienced, she gets drawn in by Snoke's trap, she's barely making it by in the Praetorian Guard battle, she's a useless rag doll in comparison to Snoke, she's clearly a natural with the force, but not enough to beat Kylo.  I brought this up before, that while people expected differently, her parents reveal is actually well done in terms of the story and her character development.  Sure, it was made to seem like a big deal, but in terms of the story itself, the idea that as a young girl, she was so distraught by the trauma of being abandoned by her parents, that she created a fantasy that her parents had just left her behind for some mysterious reason, makes a lot of sense.  This kind of thing really happens.  I can understand the disappointment that she wasn't a Skywalker, or Solo, or force baby or whatever fans thought up, but in terms of what this story delivered, it's really well done and I think almost works to turn her when Kylo is wanting both of them to join up as a way to deal with their problems.  As a character moment, it's great.  That it wasn't something crazy important, to me, shouldn't be considered a big negative.

As for Luke, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but the reveal that he wasn't actually on the planet is amazing.  I see him dying being a mixture of things.  He's old, worn down, there's no way he could fight Kylo, he couldn't even fight Rey (Which her abilities came from what she taught herself with her metal pole back on Jakku, and natural force strength, with that being her weapon training, so that works), and that he probably doesn't WANT to fight Kylo, so he uses his immense force powers for one last thing to help try and redeem himself, which is to help the resistance, and say goodbye to his former pupil with the knowledge that the Jedi will live on in Rey at least.  The sheer strain of what he did, which is a crazy cool ability that I think makes plenty of sense in the Force, combined with the relief, let him give himself to the Force, exactly like Obi-Wan did. 

But there are some issues with the other plots, I can agree there, though I think it's mostly just a problem with Finn/Rose and their section with the code breaker.  That whole thing needed to be reworked and I feel like it could've been done more easily if it was just Poe, Finn, and Rose sneaking aboard Snokes ship to take out the tracker, cutting out the other planet trip entirely.

I feel like after setting aside actual issues in the movie with a few parts, it comes down not to an issue with a movie in particular, but an issue with expectations.  The story not coming together how you thought it might doesn't make it a bad movie.  With another watch, perhaps try to look at the story again from what they are wanting to offer, see if that shifts things.  Maybe your view might change, maybe not, but I think there's a lot of good in this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: Flashback2012 on December 15, 2017, 10:56:51 pm
*SNIP*

We just got back from seeing this and you hit every nail on the head. It was clearly Star Wars: The Numerous Plot Holes or How Can We Redo Empire Strikes Back In A Jumbled Order But Longer and More Bleak.

The whole Snoke thing irked me to no end. ZERO explanation of how he came to be, he shows off a level of badassery that even the Emperor didn't seem to have and all for naught as he's taken out in the most chump way possible to advance Kylo Ren along. The fact that he let Hux live and Hux's downturn look in the base basically ensures in IX that he'll screw over Kylo at a critical point before getting snuffed out. I agree on Phasma in that she was basically shoehorned in the movie and probably will be again in IX.

I think it would have made better sense to call the movie "The Last of the Jedi" as "The Last Jedi" implies that a singular entity and yet you have at least two still.  ??? It seemed odd to me that they'd let Luke fade away with Carrie Fisher passing but I suppose she'll die off early in IX so that only Chewie and the droids are the only hold overs from the old series (and Nien Nunb too!). I'm really surprised that there's no Lando at all in this series. Shame about Ackbar, no more "It's a trap!"  :-\

Meh. I'm going to have to redo my ordering of movies now. For some reason this one pushes Rogue One up higher as it felt more like a Star Wars film than this one and this one had the actual main characters!  :o

Anyway...

Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
Rogue One
Star Wars
The Force Awakens
The Last Jedi
Revenge of the Sith
Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: hexen on December 16, 2017, 11:24:02 pm
I gave up after Disney's™ Star Wars™ The Force Awakens™ was just a lame New Hope rip-off that people ate up because of the title and people on Twitter called you a racist/sexist if you made any criticism towards it. It and Rogue One where just calculated money-making products that I doubt anyone really cared about telling a new story and just milking nostalgia. At least George Lucas tried something new with the prequels even if it was crap and he's a complete and utter fraud who gets all the recognition for other people's movie-making skills!

Since I am not going to see this one I read all the spoilers and I look positively on the fact this seems to actually try to tell a new story. Snoke getting bitchslapped without any kind explanation about him sounds really dumb. Watching the focus-group diversity pals go on a pointless adventure sounds like it would be a massive chore... is this part really longer then the actual Star Wars stuff?

I dunno... maybe I'll watch it when it's on TV, but not giving them money for this is something I feel good about doing. My 10 bucks will matter among the 50 billion they'll pull in, afterall. At least going to any discussion of the movie is fun watching the shitshow.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: turf on December 18, 2017, 01:16:10 pm
I liked The Last Jedi.  It's a good flick.   
I do have a couple complaints.  Superman Leia, the whole code breaker part, and Rose.  That's a dumb character.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: desocietas on December 18, 2017, 02:00:45 pm
I saw The Last Jedi on Saturday, and am by no means any sort of Star Wars fan. I know the names of most characters and don't have any attachment to the series as a whole, so just wanted to preface where my thoughts come from.

Rose: I wanted to like her. Appreciated that she's not a typical "look" for a possible love interest role, and the kiss, while cliché, mostly came from her getting the chance to play a hero saving who she and her sister considered a hero.

Rose/Finn: Her interest in him may have appeared to come up too quickly but she knew about his story a while before she met him. Totally agree though that the their whole subplot (felt like a way to show off a cantina-like scene) felt deflated at the end because it meant totally nothing and actually resulted in causing MORE death on the rebel's side. Had they not gone, they would've never gotten betrayed.

Kylo: I felt opposite of bikingjahuty's comments. I thought Kylo was generic and 1-dimensional in Force Awakens and appreciated that his emotions were a little more fleshed out and developed. Maybe because he didn't have his silly helmet on the whole time. I knew his connection with Rey was a ruse of sorts, but I still appreciated the interactions between them. Made him feel more human.

Rey: Her character was a bit all over the place. Naive, but in a frustrating way, and I agree that her powers seemed disproportionate to the timespan and what we saw in TFA. I didn't know anything about people's expectations about her parents until after I saw the movie, but it didn't bother me at all. I figured she was a nobody and that the writers were trying to say that the powers can exist in literally *anybody* (they tried to hit us on the head with that silly Disney scene with the stableboy). I honestly would've been a little disappointed if they said she had some fancy Jedi blood in her because it would just keep perpetuating the idea of the importance of lineage.

Flashback2012's comment about the title "The Last Jedi" got me thinking, and I'm assuming the title is referencing Luke. He wanted the order of the Jedi to be abolished and to remove the pedestal they had all been put on. Sounded like he didn't want it to be about the Jedi heroes anymore... just "heroes."

Anyway, just some thoughts from someone who didn't have any real expectations or hear any rumors leading up to the film (outside of Luke dying). Oh, and I agree that his collapse was a little disappointing, though the reveal of him having projected himself for that fight was actually pretty cool imo.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 19, 2017, 12:10:38 am
I've decided to not spend money on seeing this movie in the theater again. In fact, I won't be buying the bluray or DVD of the Last Jedi until I find it used somewhere. I do not want to support this movie or Rian Johnson being behind anything else Star Wars. I still hope I see more in this film that will make me like it more, but the more time that goes by, the more I hate what I watched last Thursday.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 20, 2017, 01:51:53 pm
Agree with most of what Bikingjahuty wrote.

What irks me the most about this movie was Rian's idea that the "Jedi must die". He did his best to create a film that erases anything important about the last seven episode films and relishes in the dumping of it. Destroys Kylo's mask because "he is no Vader". Proves that only fools rush in as heroes and save the day when he sabotages Poe's character, and makes Luke a washed up Jedi that contemplated murder. He doesn't even have the courage to say goodbye to his sister in person and face Kylo after the mistake he made. Finn needed to be shown how much of a selfish brute he was and that he had no understanding of love even though that was what he learned already in Force Awakens.

We are given a glimpse of Kylo and Rey both being very open to both sides of the Force, but with no pay off or lingering questions. Imagine if the film ended with Kylo offering Rey to take his hand and rule and Rey hesitates. It would put people in the seats for part nine. Imagine if Rey was the twin born to Han and Leia and she finds out in Snoke's throne room which makes the decision harder since she feels so alone. Kylo could have been the one to save Leia in space which would make me as a viewer wonder if he could turn good, or at least shock me more when in a final moment he turns on Rey and wounds her. The original film were amazing because there were heroes, betrayals, twists, and shocks. Last Jedi was fan fiction sold to me for a $10 ticket price.

They should have used Lucas' outline for the new trilogy and written some amazing screenplays. The overall stories have always worked and Lucas has been able to get some good screenplays written from them even if you hate his dialogue choices and movies the overall story has always worked for me.

Oh and the milking of the manatee sitting upright like a human with nasty nipples was disturbing. Especially how Luke looked at Rey like a pedophile while chugging it letting it slosh down his beard and chin like a sick pervert. The light saber throwing seen and calling it a laser sword I can maybe forgive but not that disgusting joke scene of Luke milking the animal. Reminded me of the farting animal in Episode 1. I mean if they wanted to show he was living off the land they might as well showed him artificially inseminating an animal with his bare hands or having to use a toilet with no plumbing, right. Just go ahead and give us a scene where Luke is instructing Rey while on the toilet. You can hear him grunting and there would be a small window so he can give her the glare that says,  "you want to be a Jedi then you must milk the manatee beast, inseminate animals, and take nasty dumps... Look at me Rey, look at the milk pouring down me too and I'm on the potty."
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 20, 2017, 05:44:47 pm
Agree with most of what Bikingjahuty wrote.

What irks me the most about this movie was Rian's idea that the "Jedi must die". He did his best to create a film that erases anything important about the last seven episode films and relishes in the dumping of it. Destroys Kylo's mask because "he is no Vader". Proves that only fools rush in as heroes and save the day when he sabotages Poe's character, and makes Luke a washed up Jedi that contemplated murder. He doesn't even have the courage to say goodbye to his sister in person and face Kylo after the mistake he made. Finn needed to be shown how much of a selfish brute he was and that he had no understanding of love even though that was what he learned already in Force Awakens.

We are given a glimpse of Kylo and Rey both being very open to both sides of the Force, but with no pay off or lingering questions. Imagine if the film ended with Kylo offering Rey to take his hand and rule and Rey hesitates. It would put people in the seats for part nine. Imagine if Rey was the twin born to Han and Leia and she finds out in Snoke's throne room which makes the decision harder since she feels so alone. Kylo could have been the one to save Leia in space which would make me as a viewer wonder if he could turn good, or at least shock me more when in a final moment he turns on Rey and wounds her. The original film were amazing because there were heroes, betrayals, twists, and shocks. Last Jedi was fan fiction sold to me for a $10 ticket price.

They should have used Lucas' outline for the new trilogy and written some amazing screenplays. The overall stories have always worked and Lucas has been able to get some good screenplays written from them even if you hate his dialogue choices and movies the overall story has always worked for me.

Oh and the milking of the manatee sitting upright like a human with nasty nipples was disturbing. Especially how Luke looked at Rey like a pedophile while chugging it letting it slosh down his beard and chin like a sick pervert. The light saber throwing seen and calling it a laser sword I can maybe forgive but not that disgusting joke scene of Luke milking the animal. Reminded me of the farting animal in Episode 1. I mean if they wanted to show he was living off the land they might as well showed him artificially inseminating an animal with his bare hands or having to use a toilet with no plumbing, right. Just go ahead and give us a scene where Luke is instructing Rey while on the toilet. You can hear him grunting and there would be a small window so he can give her the glare that says,  "you want to be a Jedi then you must milk the manatee beast, inseminate animals, and take nasty dumps... Look at me Rey, look at the milk pouring down me too and I'm on the potty."


LMAO!!!!!


But you brought up some things I didn't even think of which make me hate this movie even more.


I just read an article where the interviewer asked Rian Johnson about the Rey's parents reveal, and he said that it was not a misdirection, and her parents are actually nobodies. Yet, 5-minutes later she lifts 500 tons of rocks with almost no effort and we are supposed to believe that it is because of reasons. She is confirmed to be a Mary Sue, which firther means the writing for The Last Jedi is shit.


Serious, fuck this movie.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 22, 2017, 01:24:33 pm
Based on daily comparisons Jurrasic World just caught up to Star Wars Last Jedi. Either Disney hopes that kids getting out of school will bump this movie or repeat viewings and word of mouth has slowed down the box office.

They will still make money, but if they feel they have left money on the table then they will course correct for the next film.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 23, 2017, 06:38:44 pm
Looks like the backlash has hit. No Repeat viewings and casual fans are not flocking to see the film for the second weekend time frame. It is starting to track well below Jurrasic World and taking a huge 60%+ drop on second weekend.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 23, 2017, 06:57:10 pm
I'll actually be seeing it again next week with my sister who couldn't make it to opening day.  Give me a chance to hopefully better place it alongside the other movies.  It's easily over the prequels, possibly over Rogue One, and I'll need to rewatch Force Awakens again to see where it goes with that.  Not sure if it'll end up over any of the original trilogy, though Return of the Jedi is pretty low for me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 23, 2017, 07:33:46 pm
Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 23, 2017, 07:44:49 pm
Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

Even under the Prequels? I rewatched them and while I know Revenge of the Sith is tolerable, those first two movies are unwatchable.  Garbage tier slop.  I don't even care if they are technically more complete stories, they did far more damage to the Star Wars brand than Last Jedi ever could.  Last Jedi at least gives us an interesting potential future and did its best to try and give us a new direction with new ideas, even though it struggled in some areas.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 23, 2017, 08:08:35 pm
Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

Even under the Prequels? I rewatched them and while I know Revenge of the Sith is tolerable, those first two movies are unwatchable.  Garbage tier slop.  I don't even care if they are technically more complete stories, they did far more damage to the Star Wars brand than Last Jedi ever could.  Last Jedi at least gives us an interesting potential future and did its best to try and give us a new direction with new ideas, even though it struggled in some areas.

I would like to know what interesting potential future you see coming from this movie. I also would like to know why you enjoyed this movie so much too.

PS. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or an asshole; I genuinely don't want to hate this movie as much as I do and given a decent chunk of people moderately to severely enjoyed this film, so I'm trying to see where the value of this movie is. I have yet to read a compelling reason why this is a good Star Wars movie, hell even a okay one.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 23, 2017, 08:51:33 pm
I figure it's because I went in with no fan theory ideas.  I had maybe guessed that Rey was the daughter of someone important, but I didn't need it to be anyone specific.  I would've liked to know more about Snoke, which they could very well do in the third movie if they want to show Kylo's downfall more, seems like a good way to open the movie, but I liked that he got killed.  People liked the Emperor in the original trilogy and there wasn't anything really known about him.  He didn't even have a name in the original movies.  Him being a red herring changes up the projected path of the movie as it was originally seemingly falling in line as just a safe retread of the original trilogy, which was a criticism of Force Awakens.  Now we don't have a thing of whether Kylo might turn on the Supreme Leader for a redemption moment in the third movie, he chose his path, and in turn, the First Order/Empire isn't run by some wise, old, genius, manipulator, but a young, rage-filled, psychotic.  That's one reason I'm very interested in the next movie and hope they run with.  He's an instability in something that only functions through intense, dominating, control.

To me, the problem for a lot of people seems like they had an idea what the movie should've been and when it didn't match, it became automatically bad, rather than just going along with the story they wanted to tell. Luke, disgusted by his failure and the failure of the Jedi in the past, is also something that connects with the Sith.  Snoke was overconfident, gleefully so, he thought he had Kylo wrapped around his finger, but clearly not.  It all ties in together about the problems with the old order and issues of the past and leaving it behind or learning from it.  This actually connects with Poe who learns that being a hotshot isn't always the answer in a situation.  There might be something like that too with Finn, but I honestly need to rewatch the movie for it, because I feel it's the weakest part.

Rey's parents, while slightly underwhelming that it wasn't some crazy reveal, again works really well with the story she had.  An apparently traumatic childhood with deadbeat parents and the only way she could cope, was to think up a fantasy, try to make it something she could look up, much like she thought of the Jedi and Luke, when in reality, they were not what she originally had in mind.  It's a sad and realistic traumatic concept people have, that fits in with the overall story related to Kylo and gives great build up to the potential turn of Rey, saying she didn't need to be alone, as together they could make their own life, though clearly it went the other way. 

I also think that her being able to fight well without training isn't weird.  She was a scrappy scavenger surviving on a harsh world.  She trained herself with her pole weapon I believe, probably with underlying force power she never knew about if we think she was just naturally strong in the force.  It's not like she's dominating fights, she's barely getting through them.  I believe you brought it up, but her having power rather quickly isn't what makes her a Mary Sue and it isn't like she's doing anything crazy here and she makes regular mistakes or barely escapes in both movies so far.

And I have brought up my negatives already, mostly to do with Finn's and Poe's plots being weak and there pacing issues, but they have good aspects about them too.  This also just has some incredible scenes in it that alone make this movie better than the prequels could ever hope to be.  The opening battle is great.  I loved most everything with Luke and Rey.  I liked the Finn and Phasma fight, even if it was short and she MAYBE died.  I think we get a battle scarred Phasma showing up in the last movie.  The destruction of Snoke's ship might be the most amazing scene I've seen in scifi in awhile.  The battle against the guards with Kylo and Rey was great.  That entire finale on the planet is great.

Even if I was to accept some of the problems people have that go beyond my own.  There's a lot of genuine good in this movie that will forever make this movie better than the Prequels.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 24, 2017, 02:09:28 pm
I don't doubt that some people hated it because of misplaced expectations, but I can say with 100% certainty that this was not my beef with the movie.

Rey's parents needed to be someone significant to explain why in a weeks time she went from not knowing anything of the force to somehow being able to lift tons of rocks that even Yoda would have struggled with. Or how she had never held a lightsaber and then a week later she is pretty much the most unstoppable badass in all the galaxy with it. None of it makes sense, and unless they reveal she is a force baby like Anakin or some force goddess, I don't see how they are going to explain her insane power which was gained in almost no time.

It isn't that I was heavily invested in her being Luke's daughter or the granddaughter of Palpatine or anything; it's just that she needs to be significant in order to explain how powerful and adept she is. If not it is beyond terrible writing and that is my problem.

In terms of other expectations such as what happened to Luke prior to his exile, who is Snoke, and everything else that was heavily speculated on, and naturally so, following TFA I went in not knowing or expecting anything in terms of answers to these questions. But it wasn't even that I didn't like the answers, they just didn't make sense or they were snuffed out after they had been built up and established in TFA. It's as if you were reading a book and some character was built up to be this crazy powerful ,important character and got an entire chapter building him up for something later in the book, but then he is never mentioned again. From a writing standpoint it doesn't make sense.

So my problems with TLJ is that the writing is just bad and all over the place, however I can't say that all of it wasn't by design though since while I cannot confirm this I feel like Johnson had a less savory agenda when writing the screenplay. I definitely get the impression there was a lot he didn't like about Star Wars, especially TFA and sought to erase or rewrite it as much as possible, even though much of it made no sense or clashed heavily with existing, established canon.

And while I do sympathize with people saying it is still better than the prequels, I can at least give the prequels credit for being well written even though the execution of that writing (directing, dialogue, acting) was flawed in some ways. They still established Anakin's rise and fall in a believable way, the republic imploding upon itself and giving rise to the empire, and the Jedi getting all but wiped out. Despite Jar Jar, despite copious CGI, despite Heiden Christianson, we still got a cohesive story that made sense and fit nicely within the Star Wars canon and lore. The Last Jedi did the exact opposite and not in a way that was either convincing or well written. I can respect the prequels for that at least if nothing else, although I will personally say that Revenge of the Sith is an excellent movie, and the other two have their merits as well (although I admittedly don't like Attack of the Clones).

Thank you for responding though.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 24, 2017, 06:24:42 pm
Last Jedi now holds the box office record for greatest second weekend drop. It dropped by over $150 million in its second weekend. It is now trailing Jurassic World and Avengers within a similar release frame. It is not looking good. I wonder if this means Rian's new trilogy will be scrapped.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 24, 2017, 07:12:03 pm
Yeah we'll just have agree to disagree on this lol
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 25, 2017, 01:58:59 am
Certain scenes of Last Jedi were among my favorite Star Wars scenes of all time. Going in to the film and some of the ideas promised in the trailer were far more intriguing than Star Wars has been since the original trilogy. Yet the movie overall failed to deliver. I didn't leave the theater loving the characters more. I barely care for them at all now. Rey might be the only character I respect now yet I'm not thrilled to see where she goes next.

This ranks as the lowest entry for me.

Even under the Prequels? I rewatched them and while I know Revenge of the Sith is tolerable, those first two movies are unwatchable.  Garbage tier slop.  I don't even care if they are technically more complete stories, they did far more damage to the Star Wars brand than Last Jedi ever could.  Last Jedi at least gives us an interesting potential future and did its best to try and give us a new direction with new ideas, even though it struggled in some areas.

I liked it less than the prequels.

I might be biased because I think I saw the theatrical re-releases of Star Wars Original Trilogy in theaters at least a handful of times for each film. I will admit that some of that was due to me and my girlfriend at least getting into heavy petting at the movie theater during the first viewings. That girl drained my wallet dry because I could only think with my lower brain as a teenager.

When Episode I came out I was older and wiser and learned not to take girlfriends to the movies and instead engage in strip Super Smash Bros Melee competition back at my place. I was therefore able to see the prequels with full attention and be able to fully embrace my Natalie Portman crush. I saw Episode I probably 10-15 times. The others at least a handful each. They were no way perfect, but I had been wanting to know how Annakin became Darth Vader for 20 years at that point. I was so excited.  General Grievous was a bust like Boba Fett, floating fruit, and gritty sand irritating my viewing experiences was hard to endure, but each film told the story I had been dying to know.

The Last Jedi didn't answer any dying questions, it actually ruined Phasma more, ruined Snoke, made Finn terrible, made Kylo less appealing, ruined Luke, made Leia and Rey the supreme Jedis of all time. They would have kicked Yoda's ass with no proper training.  Weak Jedis have to close their eyes and concentrate to lift an X-Wing out of a swamp. Just smile and lift boulders out of the way for your Rebel buddies.

Biggest issue that plagues this new trilogy is that no one has written out a game plan. This reminds me of being a kid and my friends and I would start writing a story and hand off the paper every page or so to someone new and see how zany it came out to be in the end. This is the new standard for Star Wars. Even in comic books you finish a story arc before moving on to a new writer. It is like Kathleen Kennedy has no idea what she is doing.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on December 25, 2017, 02:43:13 am
Last Jedi now holds the box office record for greatest second weekend drop. It dropped by over $150 million in its second weekend. It is now trailing Jurassic World and Avengers within a similar release frame. It is not looking good. I wonder if this means Rian's new trilogy will be scrapped.

God, I freakin hope so! If this man gets his own trilogy I may have to be one of those people that pretends that Star Wars stopped at a certain point. Some people did this with the Original Trilogy after the prequels came out, and some people even did this once they saw Episode VII. I really hope Disney is looking at the metacritic scores and comments online, however we all know that they look at the money the most. I hope this movie vastly under performs, even compared to Rogue One. Rian Johnson can never be allowed near a Star Wars movie again.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 25, 2017, 12:14:01 pm
What makes this tough for me is that I probably would have even enjoyed the movie with all of the issues if it was just a sci-fi blockbuster action film. It only falls short because it is a sequel and it is part of an established universe and it doesn't follow through with 40 years of consistent storytelling. It would have been more palatable to me if it was even a stand alone film like Rogue One or Solo, but as an "episode" it feels it should stay tonally consistent with the rest of the films and not all of a sudden having Poe crack your mom jokes, campy gags, and character assassinations.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on December 26, 2017, 06:39:59 am
Saying there were character assassinations really doesn't make a lot of sense.  Everyone in the movie grows and becomes better, short of like the bad guys, not including Kylo.

An interesting article with Mark Hamill actually would agree with those that don't like Luke.  He doesn't think this is what Luke would do, that he couldn't act as good as he did, thinking it was Luke, so he had to try and act like someone similar, but different, which goes to show how good of an actor he can be with how he nails the performance.  It's of course a hard thing to say that the person who has portrayed Luke multiple times doesn't really get the character or story, but I think this is an instance of Hamill possibly putting too much into Luke that isn't there, which funny enough, fits into the movies plot very specifically.

He says that Jedi never give up, and that Luke would never give up, but I don't know how he reconciles that with Obi-Wan and Yoda.  They gave up.  They became hermits and basically were resigned to live out their days in the middle of nowhere.  Luke knows their history, he knows of the problems of the Jedi, realizing he essentially committed the same wrongs they've done.  Luke I'd say has a direct comparison to Obi-Wan.  Obi-Wan didn't realize what was happening to Anakin, that he was being manipulated by Palpatine, and when Anakin turned, it broke him.  EXACTLY what happened to Luke.  He broke, only for a moment, but it was still enough to be broken by it.  Also gotta keep this in mind, but Luke was 23 by the end of Return of the Jedi.  We've been away from Luke longer than he was alive in the original trilogy.  That's a long damn time for someone to mature and change, especially going through a disturbing and tragic moment, and I think Hamill has probably built up Luke his own personal way, because he has a sincere attachment to one of his most well known characters.  It's not that he's wrong, but I think he sees Luke in one path he would've gone down, while Last Jedi took the left at the fork, and that's how we get Luke as he is in the movie and it's wonderfully well done.

In this story told, he makes absolute, perfect, sense.  He's the Obi-Wan/Yoda of the movie.  I don't see how he doesn't work.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: DreamsDied13101 on December 26, 2017, 02:34:29 pm
I'll admit that I could be a little harsh on things when Lucas originally created a storyline where Darth Vader's children are "hidden" away by calling one of them Luke Skywalker and hiding him on the planet with known family.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: theflea on January 28, 2018, 08:25:41 pm
I overall liked Last Jedi, but the main part I hated and think should have been cut was is the Finn/Rose side quest.
It was like something out of the prequels. I also thought the humor was off in this movie. Not the normal light Star Wars style humor.
I also thought the whole "mutiny" part was kinda silly, (why keep it a secret from the crew?)
Also I think Ackbar should have been the one to sacrifice himself going to lightspeed then unknown purple hair lady.

Superman Leia didn't bother me like most people because I feel if Carrie Fisher didn't die her part might have been a bigger role in Episode 9 where she shows she is stronger with the force and she might have even confronted Kylo. They said they didn't want to change her role in Last Jedi because it was Carrie's last role. It's a shame that Leia's story will not be finished on film in Episode 9. She will most likely just be a note in the opening crawl that Leia died and maybe it brings the rebel's back and stronger.

The film was poorly written and it had so many moments of "Well that could have been cut and no one would have cared."
It really needed a another writer to go over it and tighten up the loose ends. They have 6 hours of fuel but there's time to fly to another planet and find a code breaker? Meanwhile Luke and Ray goes though a few days. Maybe the days are super short on that planet. lol
They could have tightened the script easy by making there a spy on the ship, now there's a reason not telling Poe the plan and lose the tracking through lightspeed plotline that went nowhere anyway. Maybe Finn is a suspect because he used to be a stormtrooper and he and Rose help to find the spy. Maybe its DJ who works on the rebel ship or maybe it's another character (purple haired commander?)

As for the other complaints I hear, Snoke dying. Ya he kinda became a waste of a character. I kinda wanted to hear more of a backstory of why he was there but overall I never liked Snoke in the first place, I was hoping he was Darth Plagueus so the films went full circle and he was behind Ray being dumped on Jaku.

As for Ray's Parents being nobody's, I still think there might be more to this, Kylo could be lying or she's a clone with mixed DNA from Luke, Anaken, Kenobi and other Jedi. If this is true (not saying it is) then it would close a plot hole about why she knows how to use Force so well and took to the Falcon so well because of memory's deep in her DNA. But again I hoping Snoke was behind this but now he's dead It feels like it won't work in the movies now. The Episode films where always supposed to be about the Skywalker bloodline, Once Kylo is dead the Skywalker bloodline ends.
I'm not real upset shes from nothing, just feels like sloppy writing that shes good with the force with no training.

Captain Phasma was again a waste, she did nothing and "died" like an idiot. I have a feeling she'll come back in 9.
The Porgs where meh, Again could have been cut and no one would have cared. Just there to sell toys.
Luke Dying in the end I pretty much predicted. I think the movies would have been, Ep7 was Han's movie, Ep8 was Luke's movie, and Ep9 would have been Leia's movie, but Carrie had to leave us to early.  :'(

As for the positive, I loved Luke and Ray for the most part, just wish there was more training then one meditation. Loved the look of the movie (except the casino planet) I loved how Luke played with Kylo in the end, but would have liked to have seen a better Lightsaber Fight. I liked how they fit in Yoda.
I liked how the rebels are beaten down to next to nothing and barely escaped. I also felt there was a missed moment where Finn could have taken out several walkers buy harpooning the Laser Ram and turning it into the legs of the AT-ATs as it fires, but no instead we get Rose saving him from sacrificing himself and somehow he runs back to the base in time. It's a shame, I liked Finn in Ep7, but this movie made me wish he did die. (I liked the movie but there is just so many stupid parts) The movie was very entertaining, just sloppy.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on February 10, 2018, 04:27:16 am
The recent Solo trailer as well as something else that I won't reveal on here yet has resulted in me refocusing on the Star Wars franchise, which also means refocusing on my disdain and disappointment in The Last Jedi. Since The Last Jedi came out, many people, including myself, have had time to fully process the film and really decide where they stand. I too have moved on, not just my stance on The Last Jedi, but on the future of the Star Wars franchise as a whole.

Before I get to where I am right now in regards to Star Wars, the reason I keep coming back to The Last Jedi and Star Wars all the time in Off Topic is because I love this franchise, and like many others this franchise means way more to me than just some entertaining scifi series. Star Wars, at least the original trilogy, is timeless, able to suck people in and make them become enchanted with it despite being born years after the original trilogy was released. My first exposure to Star Wars was likely in 1991 or 1992, when I watched the original trilogy on VHS after my dad had purchased the recent VHS release of the trilogy around this time. I would watch these movies over and over again, never tiring of them. This has not changed, and has even expanded to the prequels, well mostly. I have also played many of the video games, bought thousands of dollars in merchandise, and read many of the books over the years. I adore this franchise and will for the rest of my life. However, the TLJ is the only thing I've encountered in this franchise which may end that, at least me being able to celebrate anything released after Disney acquired the franchise.

As I mentioned above, many of us have been able to process how we really feel about The Last Jedi now that it is going on 2-months of being out. Many videos explaining both why this movie is terrible and why it is great have come out, but no video or videos has even come close to explaining this movie as objectively as the following three which are part of a series. Combined, it is around a 6-hour analysis of the entire film, plus supporting content to back up other assertions. 6-hours is a lot of time, but I promise it is totally worth it if you want by far the most in depth analysis of The Last Jedi. They are linked below:

part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk)
part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC4L6lNoc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gRC4L6lNoc)
part 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnMMzqjYGw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFnMMzqjYGw)

As I said, these videos are very well done and a highly objective analysis of the plot, writing, scenes, and direction of The Last Jedi. In summary of all three videos; The Last Jedi is by far the worst, most poorly written, most disasterous film in the Star Wars franchise and even in its own right is a terrible movie all together. While this is essentially how I felt less than a week after viewing The Last Jedi, these videos bring up many points I never thought about and also helped me hone in on exactly why I despise this movie and why it left such a terrible taste in my mouth. The Last Jedi has ruined The Force Awakens, but even worse has attempted to even ruin the original trilogy via character assassination of its most important and beloved characters.

My stance on The Last Jedi was that I would always hate it, but I'd see how things panned out in episode IX, hoping that it might frame The Last Jedi in a different ways, adding relevance and explaining things that The Last Jedi failed to do, as well as redeeming the whole storyline of the sequel trilogy, while also giving The Force Awakens relevance again. I now realize that The Last Jedi is so broken and so far gone in terms of a "story" as well as how badly it has damaged the Star Wars franchise that other than JJ Abrams and Disney flat out retconing The Last Jedi, nothing can save Star Wars from this point on. It has literally destroyed the franchise.

Before people decide to state how I'm being overly dramatic about this, I'd recommend you watch these videos and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. And just to provide a brief context, no, this has nothing to do with Rey's parents, Snoke, Luke dying at the end, or anything related to what happens in The Last Jedi, but rather what it does to the entire mythos and world of Star Wars, which creates massive problems for the whole franchise, both past and future. The only way Star Wars can go forward at this point and be the series that we all love is to write off The Last Jedi, which I am 99.99% certain Disney will not do.

With all that said, unless The Last Jedi is completely retconned I will be refusing to acknowledge or accept any Star Wars material or content created post Lucas Films being sold off to Disney. This includes Rogue One as well, which was a pretty good movie and didn't do anything to damage the Star Wars universe, but sadly I'd rather have the consistency of the old EU than to have that as a reminder of "what could have happened." And while I was thinking about seeing Solo in the theater, I honestly have no intention of seeing it now, and will only watch it for free or if I find the DVD/Blu Ray used someday; I do not want to give Disney one cent until they have made the decision to fix the mess that The Last Jedi left behind, which I honestly will not be holding my breath for. I will also not be seeing episode IX in theaters opening day or even probably opening week. Unless I read, from actual fans, that this movie fixes everything The Last Jedi broke I will remain firm on not giving Disney any of my money.

I may have thought it to be ridiculous originally, but now I am sold on the severe damage The Last Jedi has inflicted on all of Star Wars. I am severely saddened by this and while I do have the consolation of a much more developed and quality EU to fall back on, as well as the first six films, it still is a real shame. Here's hoping hell freezes and Disney actually can admit they fucked up Star Wars with the last installment in the series and will actually try and fix it rather than pretend like they're actually trying to make quality movies.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: kamikazekeeg on February 10, 2018, 06:35:45 am
I'll give the analysis a look, but I don't expect it to change my view much.  What I like, I still like, which is more than what I don't like about the movie.  It is flawed for sure, but again, I'll never think of it worse than Episode 1 and 2.  Even if I admitted it was bad, it is still less of a bore and waste of my time than those miserable prequels.  That's a permanent, never shifting, take from me.

But that's all your opinion there and I can respect it.  I'll disagree for sure, but I think I've read enough to know we won't see eye to eye on this as I think the franchise will be fine.  Even if this trilogy doesn't pan out, there are still two other trilogies and whatever other spinoffs planned.  If the Prequels didn't kill Star Wars, then the Last Jedi won't kill Star Wars.
Title: Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS)
Post by: bikingjahuty on February 10, 2018, 10:50:58 am
I'll give the analysis a look, but I don't expect it to change my view much.  What I like, I still like, which is more than what I don't like about the movie.  It is flawed for sure, but again, I'll never think of it worse than Episode 1 and 2.  Even if I admitted it was bad, it is still less of a bore and waste of my time than those miserable prequels.  That's a permanent, never shifting, take from me.

But that's all your opinion there and I can respect it.  I'll disagree for sure, but I think I've read enough to know we won't see eye to eye on this as I think the franchise will be fine.  Even if this trilogy doesn't pan out, there are still two other trilogies and whatever other spinoffs planned.  If the Prequels didn't kill Star Wars, then the Last Jedi won't kill Star Wars.

I feel like the prequels arguably failed in execution, but not overall in terms of story and relevance to the Star Wars universe. What I mean by this is behind Jar Jar, beyond farting CG animals, beyond crappy acting and cringy dialogue, there is an important and cohesive story that was told and adds to the overall narrative of Star Wars as a whole. We learn about Anakin's origins as well as how he came under the training of the Jedi and Obiwan. More importantly we see his progression to the dark side in a believable and well written way. We learn about the fall of the Republic and the rise of Palpatine and the Empire. We also learn a lot of useful info about many other characters in the franchise that either set up things in the original trilogy and enhance it. With the exception of Medichlorians the hanger bay busting (explained in the videos), they did little else to undermine the franchise or series as a whole. They respected it and I have a hard time seeing how even Attach of the Clones damaged any Star Wars movie outside itself.

This is the opposite of The Last Jedi that had good acting (mostly), cool action and CGI scenes, and characters we like (mostly), but not only undermined itself, but the entire series before it. The Last Jedi is like a bomb that went off and the closer in canon a Star Wars movie is to it, the more it damaged it. Ironically the only movies that appears unscathed were Rogue One and the prequels.

I am not trying to change your mind or anyone elses; I am not trying to evangelize people to the church of hate The Last Jedi and Disney's Star Wars, but rather just throw out some support for why I feel the way I do about this movie. This movie does bother me, a lot, and it really pisses me off that what could have been a dream come true (new Star Wars movies every year, Star Wars TV shows, having a well respected studio behind it) has been the downfall of Star Wars. Essentially I am emoting and using this thread as a place to explain how I feel. I'm past arguing with anyone about this movie or trying to change their mind about The Last Jedi, but that certainly doesn't mean I won't express how I feel in light of new content or information related to The Last Jedi and Star Wars.