Author Topic: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control  (Read 2703 times)

PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« on: January 20, 2023, 05:57:48 pm »
Hi,

I've taken a great amount of time to sort out images for the listings over the years - Mostly scans from websites but I do make effort to crop or neaten them up with Photoshop at the very least. I just wanted to address some of the issues I am having here recently.

Admin comments: Missing corner holofoil label
I've uploaded many images before that have not had te holofoil label and it's been fine. What annoys me is when I upload are accepted then quickly overwritten by someone who is taking poor quality photos. Here are some examples:
https://vgcollect.com/item/231970 - I uploaded a replacement image a few weeks ago and it was denied then replaced with a poor quality photo at an angle.
https://vgcollect.com/item/97101 - I replaced this image which had a mannual cover and it has been replaced with another image altogether With the Holofoil (but lesser quality).
https://vgcollect.com/item/97050 - I repalced this image as the colour looked really faded yet it has been reverted back to the previous design in an instant.

There are a lot of examples of this, I don't want to harp on but there are times when I look back at my collection on the site and suddenly see a garrish image stick out. Is the protocol really to preference poor quality photos with glare or at an angle to a decent scan? Is the only way for me to fix this to place my game covers in a scanner CIB?

Photos of the manuals instead of the inlay
This is also a big problem, I find a lot of the images have the manual images rather than the inlay - The main indication is the gap on the bottom left corner.

Full Case Display - Do we included the full inlay with the sides or the Plastic Embossed strips at the side.

I'm not making this post to whine, I just don't want to keep wasting my time when I see the work I put out replaced like this - Othertimes I have posted images with minor faults on them and I appreciate the admin team making such notes.

retromangia

PRO Supporter

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2023, 08:47:54 pm »
Hey Vivigamer, I just wanted to say thank you for all your time and hard work. I know how it feels to spend a lot of time editing an image just right, just to have it be denied or replaced entirely.

dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2023, 04:55:11 pm »
Most, if not all, of the replacement images or edit rejections were done by me.

Under the current style guide rules, the holofoil is important information and should be considered as a component to complete artwork as it is a formal part of the packaging. For PlayStation and PlayStation 2 EU items, the holofoil is not always (but is usually) present, so providing the best image information to showcase packaging information is a detail in accordance to our guidelines. Something else to consider is that cases are often swapped on secondary markets, so knowing which items actually include a holofoil label is a detail many would find helpful.


What annoys me is when I upload are accepted then quickly overwritten by someone who is taking poor quality photos.

Outlined in the Item Images post of the Advanced Style Guide, there is a tier system for images that determines which images are most ideal for entry art. While holofoil-less art is fine to submit and will be approved if it is a higher tier or better quality of a same-tier image, it should be understood that, at any time and by any other user, a user's image can be replaced if a better image is submitted. Had I known you weren't just uploading saved images without any degree of editing involved, I probably would have reached out to you. With that said, I do make a strong effort to find the best quality image of the highest tier that I can for any entry I contribute information for—images are generally taken from cropped photos, since most of the work I do relates to items I don't own. The chief reason I do this is because online scans regularly omit information and stock art is almost always outdated, so relying on a photo of the actual item itself ensures that the entry art is accurate. However, sometimes I find scans that are ideal, although, for this category, it is generally only for back cover art.

Like you mentioned, the quality of entry artwork for PlayStation EU is poor overall. For many entries, the front image slot either features a generic image that omits details such as holofoil label, game rating, and front item number information or a scan of the actual artwork that omits the holofoil label. There are too many instances of poor images, so I've stopped replacing every problematic front art and now am only updating the field for when the images are wrong entirely. Another aspect to consider is that most PlayStation EU items have a unique front item number (usually repeating barcode information) that relates to the regional release, but that information is generally difficult for edit queue mods to confirm due to the small image quality that is shown during the submission process, unless there are other regional differences present that are easily identifiable.


Quote
https://vgcollect.com/item/231970 - I uploaded a replacement image a few weeks ago and it was denied then replaced with a poor quality photo at an angle.

Actually, this is a new entry I submitted, and I also handled your front image edit submission for it. The same issue happened—your submitted image omitted the holofoil label, so approving that edit would have brought the field information down a tier as it would have removed crucial information. The entry has only ever had one front image, as evident by the entry history.

Quote
https://vgcollect.com/item/97050 - I repalced this image as the colour looked really faded yet it has been reverted back to the previous design in an instant.

The front art was not reverted. The original image was a generic image which omitted both the holofoil label and front item number in addition to the "PlayStation" text being positioned incorrectly. Your submitted image is the same as the current artwork but it omitted the holofoil label.

Quote
Full Case Display - Do we included the full inlay with the sides or the Plastic Embossed strips at the side.

If I am understanding what you mean, then no. Spines should be not be a part of either the front or back art slot. The case packaging in its entirety should also be absent, unless there is some variance between multiple releases that relates to which type of case was used for each item while sealed.

Quote
Is the only way for me to fix this to place my game covers in a scanner CIB?

If you are wanting high quality images that can replace the current images such as with entry 231970, then probably so. Personally, I prefer submitting image information with the highest tier possible that is available to me. This allows for fewer future updates to the field so that work can be done elsewhere for other entries. Have you considered taking a similar approach? Scanning artwork like you suggested may not be an option for you, but collecting decent quality photos through online classifieds such as eBay is still an option that anyone can do. Again, I am only suggesting this because, given the image tiers that you have been submitting, the images can at any time still be updated by anyone at anytime.

Hey vivigamer, I just wanted to say thank you for all your time and hard work.

I'd like to echo this sentiment. I feel as if it isn't often made clear here that user-submitted work is appreciated for the efforts involved, but it certainly is.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 09:16:38 pm by dhaabi »

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2023, 05:15:22 pm »
@dhaabi, So... if i have better scans of game cover, but without holofoil, no need to try to update the image, because even if image are bad, but with holo, it better? As i see, all PS2 holofoils placed on DVD-case, while i'm scanning covers...

tripredacus

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2023, 10:29:54 am »
These are holograms not holofoils. Holofoil is a completely different type of printing than holograms.

Any image that has a bad quality BUT actually represents the item (meaning it has the hologram present) can only be replaced with another image that also has the hologram present.

We do want better quality images, but not at the loss of information.

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2023, 09:09:54 pm »
I agree with vivigamer here.

This is a really bad change

allot of listings look really poor now.

https://vgcollect.com/item/226806
https://vgcollect.com/item/231238
https://vgcollect.com/item/19385
https://vgcollect.com/item/233763

Where not hiding any info by not including the plastic box. any pal collector knows this. You'll see way less of the actual images this way. your just scanning the plastic box.

Imagine if you where to do this for usa versions of disc based games like dreamcast or ps1 it will just downgrade the images, your scanning the box art through a plastic box

Didn't notice this sooner, but we suddenly got allot of items with very poor images
« Last Edit: May 06, 2023, 09:17:30 pm by sworddude »
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zappman

PRO Supporter

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2023, 09:22:09 pm »
I agree with vivigamer here.

This is a really bad change

allot of listings look really poor now.

https://vgcollect.com/item/226806
https://vgcollect.com/item/231238
https://vgcollect.com/item/19385
https://vgcollect.com/item/233763

Where not hiding any info by not including the plastic box. any pal collector knows this. You'll see way less of the actual images this way. your just scanning the plastic box.

Imagine if you where to do this for usa versions of disc based games like dreamcast or ps1 it will just downgrade the images, your scanning the box art through a plastic box

Didn't notice this sooner, but we suddenly got allot of items with very poor images
+1
I agree

dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2023, 09:45:59 pm »
Tried to replace these with decent quality covers that lack these imperfections. but allot of them got rejected for missing the hologram.

The above quote is from your other post in the error listings thread. Despite my only mentioning the absence of the hologram in your submission images, most of them were just incorrect for other reasons. Like I detailed above in this topic, a lot of these "quality" scans are either of the front insert, instruction booklet, or are just outdated stock art that different from the actual front cover art. In many of these images you prefer, the front item number which is an expected detail in PS1 EU items is often omitted in addition to the "PlayStation" text being usually formatted incorrectly.

Like I mentioned in the PM I sent to you, we are interested in maintaining all information present found on items. We do not want to sacrifice any information at the cost of less detailed but higher quality art, as it is disingenuous. Some items include hologram labels, and some do not. Just like other items, we want to preserve all detail found on items.

As you will see from your last approved edit submission, it is possible to scan high quality images of these items with the hologram still present. Here is the previous and newly-approved art for an item.



sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2023, 09:58:49 pm »
Tried to replace these with decent quality covers that lack these imperfections. but allot of them got rejected for missing the hologram.

The above quote is from your other post in the error listings thread. Despite my only mentioning the absence of the hologram in your submission images, most of them were just incorrect for other reasons. Like I detailed above in this topic, a lot of these "quality" scans are either of the front insert, instruction booklet, or are just outdated stock art that different from the actual front cover art. In many of these images you prefer, the front item number which is an expected detail in PS1 EU items is often omitted in addition to the "PlayStation" text being usually formatted incorrectly.

Like I mentioned in the PM I sent to you, we are interested in maintaining all information present found on items. We do not want to sacrifice any information at the cost of less detailed but higher quality art, as it is disingenuous. Some items include hologram labels, and some do not. Just like other items, we want to preserve all detail found on items.

As you will see from your last approved edit submission, it is possible to scan high quality images of these items with the hologram still present. Here is the previous and newly-approved art for an item.




I altered a couple of the really bad ones, but it is allot more work for info which I'd argue many would ignore. plus this new rule will result in allot of poor listings that looked perfectly fine prior to this

it's not scanned with the hologram btw you just insert a hologram of a box on an actually high quality scanned item that wasn't in the plastic case. it's impossible to scan it nicely in the orginal case even if said case was in flawless shape.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2023, 10:08:27 pm by sworddude »
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zappman

PRO Supporter

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2023, 12:51:21 am »
.........
I altered a couple of the really bad ones, but it is allot more work for info which I'd argue many would ignore. plus this new rule will result in allot of poor listings that looked perfectly fine prior to this

it's not scanned with the hologram BTW you just insert a hologram of a box on an actually high quality scanned item that wasn't in the plastic case. it's impossible to scan it nicely in the original case even if said case was in flawless shape.
+1
sworddude, thanks for trying to explain about scanning things to dhaabi.

Here is a suggestion:
I think the site should use the nice looking covers (providing they are the correct artwork) without the holograms. And, a note should be placed in the description field that stating that "a hologram is located on the bottom left corner of the jewel case front", that way no data would be lost in the database.

The data field we are discussing is "Front Box Art", to me (and I think most users) a hologram placed on the front of the jewel case is not actually part of the "Front Box Art". If the hologram is physically attached to the artwork (not the jewel case) then it should be seen in the "Front Box Art" picture.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 12:53:19 am by zappman »

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2023, 06:05:26 am »

The data field we are discussing is "Front Box Art", to me (and I think most users) a hologram placed on the front of the jewel case is not actually part of the "Front Box Art". If the hologram is physically attached to the artwork (not the jewel case) then it should be seen in the "Front Box Art" picture.

exactly, no other database did this. even specialised ones like psxdata center didn't do this. and nobody scanned pictures with said hologram because it would result in terrible images  considering the average plastic ps1 case ain't in the best shape plus said plastic is pretty thick. Let alone even in pristine shape you'll notice the downgrade.

Here is a suggestion:
I think the site should use the nice looking covers (providing they are the correct artwork) without the holograms. And, a note should be placed in the description field that stating that "a hologram is located on the bottom left corner of the jewel case front", that way no data would be lost in the database.

I 2nd this, seems like a good solution if some on here really care about said hologram that much (are there any actual pal collectors that care).  Because images like these are just unacceptable. There is no way that such a downgrade is justified just because it has a hologram lable that almost nobody cares about


+

On a extra note, can we at least have some standards before a hologram edit is accepted. Just edit a hologram on an already nice quality scanned front cover if you have to. It's painfull to see all these low quality pics being accepted which where perfectly fine prior to this  :P

« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 06:30:14 am by sworddude »
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dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2023, 07:49:57 am »
Tried to replace these with decent quality covers that lack these imperfections. but allot of them got rejected for missing the hologram.

The above quote is from your other post in the error listings thread. Despite my only mentioning the absence of the hologram in your submission images, most of them were just incorrect for other reasons. Like I detailed above in this topic, a lot of these "quality" scans are either of the front insert, instruction booklet, or are just outdated stock art that different from the actual front cover art. In many of these images you prefer, the front item number which is an expected detail in PS1 EU items is often omitted in addition to the "PlayStation" text being usually formatted incorrectly.

Like I mentioned in the PM I sent to you, we are interested in maintaining all information present found on items. We do not want to sacrifice any information at the cost of less detailed but higher quality art, as it is disingenuous. Some items include hologram labels, and some do not. Just like other items, we want to preserve all detail found on items.

As you will see from your last approved edit submission, it is possible to scan high quality images of these items with the hologram still present. Here is the previous and newly-approved art for an item.




I altered a couple of the really bad ones, but it is allot more work for info which I'd argue many would ignore. plus this new rule will result in allot of poor listings that looked perfectly fine prior to this

it's not scanned with the hologram btw you just insert a hologram of a box on an actually high quality scanned item that wasn't in the plastic case. it's impossible to scan it nicely in the orginal case even if said case was in flawless shape.

This isn't any new rule. I am merely enforcing a rule that has long existed. We have always prioritized the most accurate image information over lesser ones.

On that note, do not submit edited images like these. Finding images or the means to scan these items is not difficult to do. Submitting doctored photos for this one type of item that you prefer being done is a bad precedent for all items within the database.

I have rejected your other edit submissions you've since sent in submitting fake images like these and have reverted the Harvest Moon: Back to Nature art. It should also be publicly stated again aside from just my provided admin comments that many of your edited images were just wrong. What was wrong about them is that there is more than one kind of hologram label, and you were editing incorrect labels onto image mockups. It is for reasons like these that edited photos are not permitted and will be rejected if it is known they are edits.



With that said, it is impossible to tell which hologram was originally featured for a hologram-present item without observing a sealed copy. So, unless a sealed copy is observed, we must use good judgment in seeing what is shown online on sites such as eBay.


.........
I altered a couple of the really bad ones, but it is allot more work for info which I'd argue many would ignore. plus this new rule will result in allot of poor listings that looked perfectly fine prior to this

it's not scanned with the hologram BTW you just insert a hologram of a box on an actually high quality scanned item that wasn't in the plastic case. it's impossible to scan it nicely in the original case even if said case was in flawless shape.
+1
sworddude, thanks for trying to explain about scanning things to dhaabi.

Here is a suggestion:
I think the site should use the nice looking covers (providing they are the correct artwork) without the holograms. And, a note should be placed in the description field that stating that "a hologram is located on the bottom left corner of the jewel case front", that way no data would be lost in the database.

I understand your side of the matter. Of course, everyone prefers higher quality art that is free from glare, cracks, and so forth. But, the hologram is a part of the full product. None of our members collect the same—generally, there are three kinds of collectors: loose, open but complete, and sealed. Obviously a sealed copy will contain the most information in every circumstance, which is why if there is valuable sealed only information present, we prefer those images. It is no different than the hologram label for these items.

We already allow using the Description field like this. There are other entries which currently state when any image detail is not present in the existing art but isn't actually shown for whatever reason. But, as has been already mentioned, gathering images complete with hologram is without issue, so there are some entries which feature them. If the quality is bothersome, then submitting higher quality but same tier images is always an option which we will gladly approve (if authentic, as I explained before.)


Front/Back art slot image type priority for physical items
We prioritize the best quality image for each slot, however if a better quality image is submitted that is a tier below the existing image (even if the existing image is poor or lesser quality) it will be rejected.

1. Sealed

2. Not sealed but complete
Items that have multiple layers of packaging, should have the outer layer represented in the images. Front or back cover may have labels present.

Examples:
Ape Escape on PlayStation has a square PlayStation hologram label on the front cover.


3. Not sealed but missing labels and/or obi strip

4. Any picture of the physical item

5. Post release stock photo

6. Pre-release stock photo
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 08:06:58 am by dhaabi »

sworddude

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2023, 08:00:16 am »


Whatever, I'm done with edits, i'll just accept the shitty quality of future edits it's like talking to a brick wall anyway

I can't recall the database being such a hassle a few years back miss those times

Very dissapointing though. sorry for sounding ungratefull but this is definitely a change that's pretty sizable for the worse.

Also is there legitimately any pal collector on this site that cares about it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 08:12:02 am by sworddude »
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dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2023, 08:17:09 am »
Whatever, I'm done with edits, i'll just accept the shitty quality of future edits it's like talking to a brick wall anyway

I can't recall the database being such a hassle a few years back miss those times

I generally do not respond to comments like these, but I will in this instance. sworddude, I am only someone who is upholding the existing rules, which has historically not always been done with staff edit approvals. Until anything is changed otherwise, I am only doing my duties in honoring such rules. This is not like "talking to a brick wall." I am acknowledging your concerns and explaining why your edits can't be approved now. Of course, no one wants to see their edits be rejected after having spent time on submitting work. But, at the same time, if approving such edits comes at the cost of featuring incorrect or unauthentic information, then it should not be done.

dhaabi

Re: PS1 PAL - List Quality Control
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2023, 08:27:53 am »
all hologram lables on pal games are identical they just have 2 different pictures depending on how you reflect them in the light it is all identical.

You have been posting one conversation in two separate threads, so this is in response to a comment elsewhere. I wasn't aware of that detail, as I do not own any PAL PlayStation releases. I watched an unboxing video verifying that this is true, so I appreciate being informed of this. However, regardless of whether the edited hologram labels are correct, they are disingenuous as mentioned before and should not be submitted.