Error Listings and rejected edits 2024

[dhaabi]

https://vgcollect.com/item/89726

There is no such thing as BE tag with pal snes

for this example it should be

[FR][NL] as usual

Posting this private response (despite my repeated requests for a public discussion) here since sworddude now believes the item was also sold in Belgium.

If where talking sales, it's definitely sold in belgium aswell. but it for sure was the case in the netherlands aswell. it's pretty much the main version. I don't see how it's even a question that the NL tag should be included with a FAH release game. I'm literally from said region.

[sworddude]

https://vgcollect.com/item/89726

There is no such thing as BE tag with pal snes

for this example it should be

[FR][NL] as usual

Posting this private response (despite my repeated requests for a public discussion) here since sworddude now believes the item was also sold in Belgium.

If where talking sales, it's definitely sold in belgium aswell. but it for sure was the case in the netherlands aswell. it's pretty much the main version. I don't see how it's even a question that the NL tag should be included with a FAH release game. I'm literally from said region.

It is yes, but I don't think sales region is a great method

Cause that would mean we'd need most european country tags on oldschool snes/ gameboy releases for UKV and NOE, cause those where sold brand new in a majority of europe aswell. Even FAH for many games was sold in quite some other countries of europe including the UK.

I do not believe this is the way to go. BE is not a good tag to use for this

Besides if BE is allowed, are we going to open the can of worms that is swiss tag. which is swiss german, italian and french.

sales region is a flawed system.

BE tag is basicly just NL/FR. it shouldn't deserve a seperate spot. it's just a region not a language. besides again FAH version is even sold in the UK back in the day for quite some games like R-type III

[bobi]

I heavily second this. A clear majority of (but not all!) [FR][NL] games in the database should be [BE][FR][LU][NL] to truly represent their original market. And that only covers the market for french+dutch games… IMHO striving for country completion in the title for the european market is a wild goose chase, and doomed to be misleading *at best*. In this case most if not all european games with french & dutch on the box were released in Belgium, in addition of France, Netherlands, or both.

Listing languages on the box when a game has several language variations in a given region would be much less disputable.

[dhaabi]

I heavily second this. A clear majority of (but not all!) [FR][NL] games in the database should be [BE][FR][LU][NL] to truly represent their original market. And that only covers the market for french+dutch games… IMHO striving for country completion in the title for the european market is a wild goose chase, and doomed to be misleading *at best*. In this case most if not all european games with french & dutch on the box were released in Belgium, in addition of France, Netherlands, or both.

Listing languages on the box when a game has several language variations in a given region would be much less disputable.

Attaching TLD information to entry names based on language text leads to more problems than based on country of origin.

- Consider items without any packaging text.
- Consider items with only one regional release, regardless of the amount of languages present.
- Consider the English language. What sort of tag are you implying be given to it? Be aware that [EN] is not a TLD.
- Consider items which a language is present that doesn't directly relate to its country of origin. For instance, are you suggesting Canadian entries be tagged as [FR]? Brazilian items be tagged as [PT]? There are plenty of items originating from Asia with only English as the language text, even.
- Consider items which are regional variants only based on a label, or the few which are unique based on an included component like a different instruction booklet. Hundreds of these sorts of items already exist within the database, and their packaging languages are the exact same as others.
- Consider regional variant items which rely on descriptors solely instead of TLDs, such as 245945. TLDs should only be attached when multiple entries within the same exact name in the same category exist, so a TLD isn't used in this situation. With your proposal, there would be.

We won't be making an exception rule or altering the rules altogether due to one specific region of categories. You suggest how some entry name TLDs may be "misleading," but I don't see how that can be if sufficient information is supplied. Numerous other form fields coincide with the Name field which can mitigate this issue. If there is confusion relating to what an entry is intended to represent based on an entry's name alone, then that almost certainly means other fields were either filled out incorrectly or omitted altogether. In no ideal situation should the Name field be the only explanation as to what an item is, with image, Barcode, and Item Number fields being most helpful. At the same time, if there is incorrect data, it is usually straightforward to correct. Likewise, if existing information is correct but incomplete, that is simple to amend.

Also recognize that every item is released differently, meaning every single item in the database should be analyzed individually. So, for example, if there are some Dutch items where it can be confirmed that they were also released in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, or wherever, then submit that information. Some information is difficult for staff to confirm on our own, so it's never wrong to post to the forums in this very topic to preemptively explain certain edits with verifying links, as the topic post outlines, before the submission is responded to by staff.

While the current TLD and descriptor systems aren't perfect, they're the best we're to work with given the site's current development and limitations. Ideally, there would be one master entry for each game, so to speak, with all variants including regional ones accessible from the same page. However, that isn't how the site is currently built. So, we compromise until something better is made.

[sworddude]

I heavily second this. A clear majority of (but not all!) [FR][NL] games in the database should be [BE][FR][LU][NL] to truly represent their original market. And that only covers the market for french+dutch games… IMHO striving for country completion in the title for the european market is a wild goose chase, and doomed to be misleading *at best*. In this case most if not all european games with french & dutch on the box were released in Belgium, in addition of France, Netherlands, or both.

Listing languages on the box when a game has several language variations in a given region would be much less disputable.

Attaching TLD information to entry names based on language text leads to more problems than based on country of origin.

- Consider items without any packaging text.
- Consider items with only one regional release, regardless of the amount of languages present.
- Consider the English language. What sort of tag are you implying be given to it? Be aware that [EN] is not a TLD.
- Consider items which a language is present that doesn't directly relate to its country of origin. For instance, are you suggesting Canadian entries be tagged as [FR]? Brazilian items be tagged as [PT]? There are plenty of items originating from Asia with only English as the language text, even.
- Consider items which are regional variants only based on a label, or the few which are unique based on an included component like a different instruction booklet. Hundreds of these sorts of items already exist within the database, and their packaging languages are the exact same as others.
- Consider regional variant items which rely on descriptors solely instead of TLDs, such as 245945. TLDs should only be attached when multiple entries within the same exact name in the same category exist, so a TLD isn't used in this situation. With your proposal, there would be.

We won't be making an exception rule or altering the rules altogether due to one specific region of categories. You suggest how some entry name TLDs may be "misleading," but I don't see how that can be if sufficient information is supplied. Numerous other form fields coincide with the Name field which can mitigate this issue. If there is confusion relating to what an entry is intended to represent based on an entry's name alone, then that almost certainly means other fields were either filled out incorrectly or omitted altogether. In no ideal situation should the Name field be the only explanation as to what an item is, with image, Barcode, and Item Number fields being most helpful. At the same time, if there is incorrect data, it is usually straightforward to correct. Likewise, if existing information is correct but incomplete, that is simple to amend.

Also recognize that every item is released differently, meaning every single item in the database should be analyzed individually. So, for example, if there are some Dutch items where it can be confirmed that they were also released in France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, or wherever, then submit that information. Some information is difficult for staff to confirm on our own, so it's never wrong to post to the forums in this very topic to preemptively explain certain edits with verifying links, as the topic post outlines, before the submission is responded to by staff.

While the current TLD and descriptor systems aren't perfect, they're the best we're to work with given the site's current development and limitations. Ideally, there would be one master entry for each game, so to speak, with all variants including regional ones accessible from the same page. However, that isn't how the site is currently built. So, we compromise until something better is made.

Adding sales region in the european section a can of worms you do not want to enter.

your just making up ridiculous rules that hardly matter to most collectors and make stuff super complicated withouth actually providing details that matter. Where is the actual benefit of this system? it is imo non existent. Sometimes I really think your the only 1 that likes these changes. Could be wrong on that but it feels like it at times.

Let's just keep it clean and simple.

There are not many problems if where sticking to languages for europe. if you really have a specific item you can make exceptions, but this should not be an issue for 99% of games.

say you got a sports game that was just specificly for said country with exclusive clubs. you can go ahead and go crazy with your over the top rules and say it's a BE or whatever game, It should only matter for mostly some sports of singstar games.


Besides collectors for games are not looking for a regional version, they are just looking for a copy in their language. Nobody is saying that they are looking for a Belgium game 


Why should we complicate the ez codes that are already given to use.
Such as UKV FAH, NOE, SCN HOL. we used to just list these codes behind said games and that was literally perfect since collectors used those codes all the time. Languages are fine enough aswell but I never got why that was altered. Sales region is just not the way to go.

I've already seen the BE code spread throughout many items in the database which just doesn't make any sense. Like a BE coded shadow of the collosus ps2, like wtf is that  https://vgcollect.com/item/33616

It doesn't even exist. game that was released in belgium had 4 languages, and how is that BE exclusive? Not to mention french and english only copies where in that same region aswell


I hope some folks can get Dhaabi back to the land of the living cause his idea's are getting out of hand

If Dhaabi does succeed with this horrible idea, I'm not going to help him with this wild goose chase that will just dilute the site with useless information. cause it's just another downgrade to this otherwise cool site.


Let's just keep it at either languages or the OG codes that are listed on said games UKV FAH, HOL, NOE, SCN etc like what it used to be before Presumably Dhaabi altered it

[dhaabi]

Adding sales region in the european section a can of worms you do not want to enter.

Let's just keep it at either languages or the OG codes that are listed on said games UKV FAH, HOL, NOE, SCN etc like what it used to be before Presumably Dhaabi altered it

+1 to the chuckle or two you got out of me.

This isn't the place to engage in this sort of conversation (make a separate topic for it) nor do I feel like responding in-depth since you ignored everything I mentioned above. But, I will say this: these rules were set long before I ever started contributing to the site, let alone became a staff member. Like other rules you have taken issue with, I am merely enforcing them. In that regard, this "can of worms" has been opened for years, although you seem to have only just noticed it. Again, if you have an issue with certain rules or have ideas as to provide better alternatives, I would suggest creating a topic in the Site Feedback section where a more engaging and on-topic discussion can be made.

[sworddude]

Adding sales region in the european section a can of worms you do not want to enter.

Let's just keep it at either languages or the OG codes that are listed on said games UKV FAH, HOL, NOE, SCN etc like what it used to be before Presumably Dhaabi altered it

+1 to the chuckle or two you got out of me.

This isn't the place to engage in this sort of conversation (make a separate topic for it) nor do I feel like responding in-depth since you ignored everything I mentioned above. But, I will say this: these rules were set long before I ever started contributing to the site, let alone became a staff member. Like other rules you have taken issue with, I am merely enforcing them. In that regard, this "can of worms" has been opened for years, although you seem to have only just noticed it. Again, if you have an issue with certain rules or have ideas as to provide better alternatives, I would suggest creating a topic in the Site Feedback section where a more engaging and on-topic discussion can be made.

BE code was not a thing 1 or max 2 months ago. I've checked since people tend to add different countries to already existing listings.

if it did exist earlier it wasn't as wide spread, BE code in even the snes catalogue is just outrageous. defo not more than 1 month ago I'd say

My feedback is to just use the codes. UKV, FAH, HOL etc

that's the best way, no need for language tags on games either than. Stuff like canadian releases with french shouldn't be an issue, they are already in a seperate region anyway. people know what to expect let's not state the obvious. no need for any tags if said games are in the canadian section anyway. Same stuff for Australian versions etc

I'll say this though,

Listings such as these are just filler. it's just wrong. I would suggest removing at the very least the BE tag. and this was previously just a generic english version of it considering the amount of people that have it in the collection. It's a vgcollect classic, altering previously english releases to versions 90+% of the people don't have.

https://vgcollect.com/item/33616

this is your version with the matching barcode ending with an 8 your looking at.

How is this just BE region?

Just saying, this european version is pretty much a thing in most of europe I'd say, are we really going to tag 5+ countries here

[dhaabi]

BE code was not a thing 1 or max 2 months ago. I've checked since people tend to add different countries to already existing listings.

if it did exist earlier it wasn't as wide spread, BE code in even the snes catatelogue is just outrageous. defo not more than 1 month ago I'd say

How is this just BE region?

Refer to the Release Country TLD Master List topic post which was last updated in 2022 and the TLDs and Import Labels post of the Advanced Style Guide which was last updated in 2021.

Also, refer to my aforementioned post which you ignored. 33616 was also likely sold in NL. Whenever I updated its entry name, I probably could only confirm BE which would explain why there's only one TLD. From my observations, when there are multiple regional variants for an item in PlayStation categories, it means there is not usually a general European release. Across other regional markets, I've found no evidence of 33616 being sold, although it could be later confirmed.

At the same time, if there is incorrect data, it is usually straightforward to correct. Likewise, if existing information is correct but incomplete, that is simple to amend.

My feedback is to just use the codes. UKV, FAH, HOL etc

These three-letter codes are predominantly tied to Nintendo items, mostly in Europe. Some publishers, like Capcom, feature similar codes, but they are not widespread nor standardized worldwide. Like I've already mentioned, exceptions won't be made for one specific type of category, because rules need to exist for the entire database which catalogs items from across the world. Were we to implement this, how do you suggest we tag items from Singapore? Or Kenya? Even in Europe, what about items from Lithuania? Ukraine? Greece? Whatever rule is in place needs to account for all items, not just the small number of ones you're personally concerned about.

I will also briefly mention some modern Asian items placed in CN categories. These three entries are all general Asia releases, yet have conflicting codes: ASI, CHT, JPN.

Stuff like canadian releases with french shouldn't be an issue, they are already in a seperate region anyway. people know what to expect let's not state the obvious. no need for any tags if said games are in the canadian section anyway.

The database has two dedicated yet small CA sections. All other CA items are placed in NA categories. Stating the obvious is adding tags for every language present on an item's packaging, but I digress.

[sworddude]

If where going by your method. snes would have a canadian section. there are differences between carts.

Not to mention I'm fairly sure a ton of snes games never had a unique canadian release and are the regular usa release and thus you'd need to add canadian sales region to 30 - 50% prob more of the USA database for older consoles? cause of those games being sold in canada back in the day anyway it's the only version.

if your going to add sales region to pal games, why not add them to usa games aswell for canadian tag if no canadian versions exists which I can almost guarantee you is a hell lot of said library

.

The database has two dedicated yet small CA sections. All other CA items are placed in NA categories. Stating the obvious is adding tags for every language present on an item's packaging, but I digress.

stating the obvious is just adding nothing to it. If said games are in aus or Canadian category already nothing else needs to be said. it's obvious.

[dhaabi]

If said games are in aus or Canadian category already nothing else needs to be said. it's obvious.

Correct. This is why you will never find [EU] and [NA] TLDs as part of entry names in their respective regional categories. Likewise, you won't find the [US] TLD in NA categories, because there are never NA and US releases. However, there are EU and UK releases, which is why there are sometimes items marked as [UK] in EU categories.

Never use a TLD in an item title where the item is in a category that has the same TLD in its name.
Examples:
- don't have ITEM NAME [EU] in CATEGORY [EU]
- don't have ITEM NAME [US] in CATEGORY [NA]

Not to mention I'm fairly sure a ton of snes games never had a unique canadian release and are the regular usa release and thus you'd need to add canadian sales region to 30 - 50% prob more of the USA database for older consoles? cause of those games being sold in canada back in the day anyway it's the only version.

if your going to add sales region to pal games, why not add them to usa games aswell for canadian tag if no canadian versions exists which I can almost guarantee you is a hell lot of said library

With my above comment in mind, the [CA] TLD tag is never assigned unless there is a CA regional variant. In short, all entries in regional categories have an assigned TLD, as each of their respective categories are assigned one. So, for example, a NL item may feature a [NL] TLD in its entry name, but it also has an assumed [EU] TLD. That said, the only reason to assign a [CA] TLD is when there is both a NA or US copy of an item and a CA one. This is because all entries in NA categories without regional variants are assumed to already have a [NA] TLD which supersedes specific regional TLDs.

If where going by your method. snes would have a canadian section. there are differences between carts.

While I understand why the Amiga CD32 [CA] sub-category exists since it was not released in the United States, the NES [CA] sub-category is an anomaly. That it should exist or instead be merged into NES [US] to form NES [NA] is something I can't comment on until I understand the situation better.

[tripredacus]

- Consider the English language. What sort of tag are you implying be given to it? Be aware that [EN] is not a TLD.

There is no need to rehash this conversation, we already have the format for identifying language. It is the standard ISO-639+ISO-3166 locale combination. We just do not use it on the site anywhere as it does not actually help in regards to making the site easier to use. They would be used if we were to attach language information to an entry, either privately (as a var) or publicly likely would be a hidden value that would load a different resource like an image to represent the value. This particular format would allow separation between locales, such as en-US vs en-GB, or for French there are fr-CA, fr-FR, fr-BE or fr-CH...

Use of TLD is not ideal and is only required based on how the site is designed.

Amiga CD32 [CA] category is an anomaly, and likely is going to get merged with the EU cat once the site reliability issue is resolved.
NES [CA] is from before my time as staff, there is no much of a situation to understand. It doesn't hurt to exist.

Also, current categories or how they appear are also due to the original design of the site which has not changed. Remember that the site was not originally designed for the amount of items we currently cover. A different design to the site could eliminate the way categories are viewed and could also eliminate the usage of TLDs (or even descriptors) in item titles. Until something like that happens, we will continue to use the TLD and descriptors the way we do now.

[bobi]

I heavily second this. A clear majority of (but not all!) [FR][NL] games in the database should be [BE][FR][LU][NL] to truly represent their original market. And that only covers the market for french+dutch games… IMHO striving for country completion in the title for the european market is a wild goose chase, and doomed to be misleading *at best*. In this case most if not all european games with french & dutch on the box were released in Belgium, in addition of France, Netherlands, or both.

Listing languages on the box when a game has several language variations in a given region would be much less disputable.

Attaching TLD information to entry names based on language text leads to more problems than based on country of origin.

- Consider items without any packaging text.

[]

- Consider items with only one regional release, regardless of the amount of languages present.

Same as today; only one entry in a region => no need to explicitely state the sale countries. Could be the same with languages.

- Consider the English language. What sort of tag are you implying be given to it? Be aware that [EN] is not a TLD.

EN must be the language code for english in some ANSI standard as well as some ISO standard. I would be astonished if not the case.
And again, it would only appear when necessary.

- Consider items which a language is present that doesn't directly relate to its country of origin. For instance, are you suggesting Canadian entries be tagged as [FR]? Brazilian items be tagged as [PT]? There are plenty of items originating from Asia with only English as the language text, even.

I hardly see the problem here: an NA entry with french on the box obviously was not published in France, but most definitely (at least) in Canada.
Same goes for a game with portuguese that targeted the south american market.

- Consider items which are regional variants only based on a label, or the few which are unique based on an included component like a different instruction booklet. Hundreds of these sorts of items already exist within the database, and their packaging languages are the exact same as others.

If we’re talking of stuff like the portuguese IGAC stamp, maybe an “(with IGAC stamp)” mention would be crystal clear?

- Consider regional variant items which rely on descriptors solely instead of TLDs, such as 245945. TLDs should only be attached when multiple entries within the same exact name in the same category exist, so a TLD isn't used in this situation. With your proposal, there would be.

Nope. My proposal is to replace the rule of “use country codes, when necessary“, with a rule of “use language codes, when necessary”.
IMHO that would change absolutely nothing for the entry you linked here.

__

The thing is, we all agree there’s a problem: splitting markets into regions is not enough, as some games got several versions in a same region, with the only changes being a) the region’s countries there were sold in and b) the languages printed on the box.

*I* think the current solution is unsatisfactory because fundamentally flawed by the lack of clear information about countries a game is / were sold in, especially for old games (and perhaps more especially within the EU “single” market).
On the other hand, the thing with languages printed maybe 30 years ago on a box is that everybody that owns this box has a direct, undisputable access to the information about what languages are printed on said box. Using that instead of the country is easy, verifiable, correctable and reproducible. 4 qualities the country code lacks, if you ask me.

[vivigamer]

I've had to bring this up before, now I am going to have to do so again...

I just listed a game White Day 2. The game has a subtitle but it also is noted as a Complete Edition. From my understanding and what I read in the sites style guide it should be formatted as:

Tile: Subtitle - Edition
White Day 2: The Flower That Tells Lies - Complete Edition

Yet, I find my listing had been edited to:

Tile: Subtitle: Edition
White Day 2: The Flower That Tells Lies: Complete Edition

Other than looking like crap, it also doesn't specify the difference between the subtitle and edition. So can we stop with re-editing listings this way?

Amazon has the game listed in the way I have recomended also:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Day-Flower-Tells-Complete/dp/B0CV7XFDBH/

[dhaabi]

I just listed a game White Day 2. The game has a subtitle but it also is noted as a Complete Edition. From my understanding and what I read in the sites style guide it should be formatted as:

Tile: Subtitle - Edition
White Day 2: The Flower That Tells Lies - Complete Edition

The formatting style originally submitted is incorrect. Hyphen edition formatting ( - x Edition) should be used to denote an item which is a special, limited, or budget release. However, colon edition formatting (:x Edition) should be used to denote when a game has been released as a second, entirely different item under a different name. The latter will often be used relating to most "Complete," "Gold," "Ultimate," and so forth edition types.

For physical releases that have a special, limited or budget release outside of the standard game release, we put the Edition Name after the game name using a hyphen ( - ) symbol.

Edition re-release versus Edition game title
The original release for Fallout: New Vegas has a "regular" release and a Collector's Edition.
Fallout: New Vegas
Fallout: New Vegas - Collector's Edition

This game was then released a second time with a new title, as well as additional budget releases. In this case, the main release does not use the hyphen, while the budget releases do.
Fallout: New Vegas: Ultimate Edition
Fallout: New Vegas: Ultimate Edition - Greatest Hits
Fallout: New Vegas: Ultimate Edition - Platinum Hits

We know that White Day 2: The Flower That Tells Lies: Complete Edition is a different item because, originally, all three episodes were sold separately. The "Complete Edition" item now packages all three episodes alongside every DLC into one item. From the Steam store page (which we should assume will be the same for other platforms, considering this item has yet to be actually released as a physical item):

White Day 2: The Flower That Tells Lies - Complete Edition brings together the interlocking stories of all three episodes along with every released DLC into one definitive package.

Our site's formatting rules supersedes others'.

Our formatting rules override a common title as listed on another website.

[tripredacus]

Other than looking like crap, it also doesn't specify the difference between the subtitle and edition. So can we stop with re-editing listings this way?

This change was due to a community poll: https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,11879.0.html
You are free to request a re-vote by posting here: https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.0.html

Since the vote winner was by a large margin, a re-vote may not reproduce different results.