Style Guide Poll #3: Game Titles

[tripredacus]

Rule update is in effect.
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,22.msg155.html

"commonly accepted regional release title"

The sources list is there also, and a new post with the 3 current exceptions. If you want to submit specific sources to add to the trusted sites list, or any other exceptions we should be looking at, post them into this thread.

If there is anything else you think we should tackle in the future, post into the Poll Ideas thread in Site Feedback.

[desocietas]

Rule update is in effect.
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,22.msg155.html

"commonly accepted regional release title"

The sources list is there also, and a new post with the 3 current exceptions. If you want to submit specific sources to add to the trusted sites list, or any other exceptions we should be looking at, post them into this thread.

If there is anything else you think we should tackle in the future, post into the Poll Ideas thread in Site Feedback.

Thank you, Tripredacus!

[tripredacus]

Relative bump.

In the advanced style guide, I had originally written a part up about Roman Numerals, however it was not something that was ever official and I didn't want to make it official just because. It was another one of those unwritten rules we really shouldn't have. Which was: physical games with roman numerals in the logo get roman numerals in the title, but digital games do not.
Another thing that made me think of this was a recent interview of some guy talking about how the new Resident Evil game, despite having a VIII in the logo, doesn't have VIII or 8 in the title.

So this roman numeral text from the new guide has been removed, and I will let you guys decide on whether we should vote on having a roman numeral common name exception.

Numbers and Roman Numerals
Item Name should use the numbering format as it exists on the packaging. If a common name uses a number but the packaging uses a roman numeral, the name using the number goes into Alt-Name.

Example: Call of Duty: Black Ops 4
The title as shown on the packaging: Call of Duty: Black Ops IIII (this is the item name)
The title as seen within the game, on digital platforms or on other websites: Call of Duty: Black Ops 4 (this is the Alt-Name)

[telly]

I personally think it's fine to have the roman numerals common rule as we've had it. So RE VII, Black Ops IIII, and RDR II have the roman numerals even though their common name has Arabic numerals

[pzeke]

Pardon my bluntness, but this name/title thing is so stupid. Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that? Whatever other variant name(s) the game have/has should go under the "alt-name" field. Why over-complicate things?

For the example above, use the title "Call of Duty IIII" and "Call of Duty 4" in the alt field. For Japanese games, or from any other region, really, that tend to have more than one name in their title, then use the name the game is most commonly known for, obviously. Pokémon games for instance, while called the same in Japan, are titled "ポケットモンスター", which translates to "Pocket Monsters", so, name the entry "Pocket Monsters" and add "ポケットモンスター" and "Pokémon" and any other variant in the alt field. Seriously, why the hell over-complicate this?

[telly]

Pardon my bluntness, but this name/title thing is so stupid. Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that? Whatever other variant name(s) the game have/has should go under the "alt-name" field. Why over-complicate things?

Because it's not that simple. The title that's "provided" by the game on the cover or the spine is almost always stylized in some way. Honoring that stylization leads to many problems with several games and franchises. We weren't being consistent with the "if it says it on the box, that's how it's gotta be named". It appears easy for BLOPSIIII vs BLOPS4, but it gets extremely complicated when we apply a "blanket rule" like this to other titles.

I'll quote my original post when we were having this discussion because it's not in this thread.

- Placement of numbers or words on the title often don't match up with the actual title

Every release of this game becomes 4 Resident Evil
https://vgcollect.com/search/Resident%20evil%204
Every release of this game becomes Super 3 Mario Bros.
https://vgcollect.com/search/Super%20mario%20bros%203

- Stylization of words causes issues with colon placement

This game becomes Metroid: Prime: Hunters: First Hunt
www.vgcollect.com/item/11130
This game becomes Donkey Kong: Country: Tropical: Freeze
www.vgcollect.com/item/45607
This game becomes Star Wars: Knights: Of the old Republic II: Sith Lords
www.vgcollect.com/item/197

- Games with other games or companies listed on the box all have to be included in the title

This game becomes Steamworld Heist Steamworld Collection Steamworld Dig: A Fistful of Dirt
www.vgcollect.com/item/111283
This game becomes Pac-Man Pole Position Dig Dug Galaga Namco Museum
www.vgcollect.com/item/815
This game becomes Killer 7 Capcom Killer 7
www.vgcollect.com/item/106615

- Game titles with spaces or no spaces will be either squished together or separated

This game becomes Trans Formers: Prime
www.vgcollect.com/item/49584
This game becomes Digimonstory: Cybersleuth
www.vgcollect.com/item/90977
This game becomes Metalgearrising: Revengeance
www.vgcollect.com/item/16792

Trust me, we decided to use a common name source in order to simplify things. 

[telly]

For Japanese games, or from any other region, really, that tend to have more than one name in their title, then use the name the game is most commonly known for, obviously. Pokémon games for instance, while called the same in Japan, are titled "ポケットモンスター", which translates to "Pocket Monsters", so, name the entry "Pocket Monsters" and add "ポケットモンスター" and "Pokémon" and any other variant in the alt field. Seriously, why the hell over-complicate this?

The issue here is that newer Japanese Pokémon games have both Pokémon AND ポケットモンスター on the box. So you tell me which one is the more "common" name It's not that easy to determine.

https://vgcollect.com/item/33769 -> In this example, you can see different people changing the name back and forth between the two.



In the past, it was decided that when a box has both the name in English it's Japanese equivalent, English takes priority because this is primarily an English-language database. Again, I'll quote the post that I made, specifically highlighting the first line. These rules that we decided on were overwritten when we accepted the common name rule, which is what Tripredacus and I were discussing above.

Any part of the game’s title that is English or has any characters of the Latin alphabet must be included in the title that is entered into the database.

Any part the game’s title that is in katakana must be written as its English translation. For reference, writing in katakana uses more simplified, angular strokes, and is used for words that are meant to be in the English language but are difficult for Japanese speakers to say. It’s usually used for pronouns or very specific names or brands.

Any remaining portion of the title in kanji or hiragana that is not already represented by another form above must be romanized using the most recognized transliteration. Hiragana and kanji are typically used for native Japanese words, and usually are what makes up a game's subtitle. Kanji in particular features complex and compacted symbols, and can sometimes represent a whole word rather than sounds.

[tripredacus]

Pardon my bluntness, but this name/title thing is so stupid. Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that?

It is evident that most websites do not use the name on the thing itself, which was what caused this issue for us.

Besides what was already posted, the reason is because when we did have a "soft" rule for game titles that were: use the name on the box, users would pick and choose when to apply that naming convention. There was a general agreement in the forums that people wanted to use this naming convention, so I did what I did and went and renamed a bunch of stuff like that. I think the deal breaker was changing the .hack games to their front titles. So then we first had a discussion, then we created a poll to let the community decide how we were naming things. You see what won, and more importantly, that went into the style guide.

[pzeke]

Because it's not that simple. The title that's "provided" by the game on the cover or the spine is almost always stylized in some way. Honoring that stylization leads to many problems with several games and franchises. We weren't being consistent with the "if it says it on the box, that's how it's gotta be named". It appears easy for BLOPSIIII vs BLOPS4, but it gets extremely complicated when we apply a "blanket rule" like this to other titles.

Well, I mean, obviously not if we go by that train of thought. I know it's the Internet, and I know most people on it lack common sense, but common sense would tell me, "hey, don't use Chu♥lip, use Chulip instead", or "it shouldn't be THE iDOLM@STER, so let's go with The Idolmaster" or "let's take the star glyph off Black★Rock Shooter" and so on. The rule should be that, while the name provided on the cover/spine can be used, it shouldn't be a literal transcription, expounding that the name must be in title case and any and all special characters must be ommited, but that the original title can be freely added to the alt-name field. Other rules could be implemented to ellaborate on certain naming conventions, like names with Disney or Marvel on the title, for example.

Trust me, we decided to use a common name source in order to simplify things.

Again, I know we're on the Internet, but it doesn't mean things have to be dumbed-down. There's no science behind this, just common sense.

The issue here is that newer Japanese Pokémon games have both Pokémon AND ポケットモンスター on the box. So you tell me which one is the more "common" name It's not that easy to determine.

While Pokémon is used frequently over there—you can certainly hear this during interviews with Masuda and others where they will usually say "Pokémon"—the franchise is known there mostly as "Pocket Monsters/ポケットモンスター". However, it's worth noting that you do see merchandise using "ポケモン" (Pokémon), and it has been going on for quite a while now, but "ポケットモンスター" is always present.

In the past, it was decided that when a box has both the name in English it's Japanese equivalent, English takes priority because this is primarily an English-language database. Again, I'll quote the post that I made, specifically highlighting the first line. These rules that we decided on were overwritten when we accepted the common name rule, which is what Tripredacus and I were discussing above.

I'm not necessarily opposed to that, so long as the original title is always included in the alt-name field. Which by the way, said field should be improved so that titles with more than one alt have them below each other, not side by side divided by a slash.

It is evident that most websites do not use the name on the thing itself, which was what caused this issue for us.

That wording sounds trite, if I'm being honest. When most people search for a game, they go by the title present on the cover. Wasn't there someone that posted once because he couldn't find a game by the way he was typing it or something close to it? I seem to recall something like that happening once, but I'm not going to look around in a sea of over 170,000+ posts.

[telly]

Well, I mean, obviously not if we go by that train of thought. I know it's the Internet, and I know most people on it lack common sense, but common sense would tell me, "hey, don't use Chu♥lip, use Chulip instead", or "it shouldn't be THE iDOLM@STER, so let's go with The Idolmaster" or "let's take the star glyph off Black★Rock Shooter" and so on. The rule should be that, while the name provided on the cover/spine can be used, it shouldn't be a literal transcription, expounding that the name must be in title case and any and all special characters must be ommited, but that the original title can be freely added to the alt-name field. Other rules could be implemented to ellaborate on certain naming conventions, like names with Disney or Marvel on the title, for example.

We already have a blanket statement on using symbols in names. However, I would argue that what may seem apparent to you really isn't what someone else may see. For example, I was putting the @ in Idolmaster for a long time on the DB. That's how I honestly thought it should be written.

But look at the examples I quoted in that post below; the symbols are only one very small piece of it. I'll pull a couple examples out with more detail.

- What about words getting squished and separated? Here's an example that actually happened. All the Mega Man games past the SNES X games were being squished together to "MegaMan" at one point because that's what the box shows.

But if we follow that rule we have to change other names too, which end up being clearly incorrect. The box says "Trans Formers Prime" but "common sense" says it should be "Transformers: Prime". So do we just make an exception to the rule here?



- What about placement of numbers? Another real-world example:  Mega Man X3 was changed to Mega Man X³ at one point because again, that's what the box shows.

But again, if we follow that rule with other games with numbers, we end up with titles that aren't right. Here, the box clearly says "4 Resident Evil" but "common sense" says it should be "Resident Evil 4". So do we just make an exception to the rule here?



If we accept these small innocuous changes of Mega Man to MegaMan or X3 to X³, because "that's what's one the box", we also have to change those other games to something that's clearly wrong. OR we make special exceptions for every single one of those "common sense" examples, and our rules would not be any less confusing or cumbersome to navigate; in fact it would be way, way worse. Because there are many, many more examples, particularly with colon placement in the title, which isn't even shown on a game's box.

Just saying "use what's printed on the box" sounds catchy and easy at a cursory glance. But it is in fact a far worse ideology to follow. You either butcher the database or create an exception list a mile long to prevent said butchery and completely undermine the whole idea of using what's on the box in the process.

Again, I know we're on the Internet, but it doesn't mean things have to be dumbed-down. There's no science behind this, just common sense.

Our system now is this: unsure what the game's title should be? Look it up on gamefaqs or mobygames, and use that. Far easier and still accomplishes the same "common sense ideology" than if we built it ourselves from the ground up. With BLOPS4/IIII, we're just deciding if we want to do our own thing with regards to roman numerals on boxes while most websites use arabic numerals. But we don't have to, it's up to us.

[telly]

Truthfully, the Pokemon vs. Pocket Monsters doesn't really bother me. Either is fine. I was more upset because it went against those old guidelines that we established, and Tripredacus reminded me that those guidelines don't apply anymore because we as a community decided to go with a different method.

[pzeke]

If the rule regarding symbols was already in place, why were you adding the ampersand, then?

Regarding your examples, I think it's quite obvious those are stylistic choices, especially with the X³. Most everyone in the world knows it's "Transformers", just one word, and it has been established by now that it's "Mega Man", two words. I mean, who in their right, conscious mind would think the fourth entry in the series is called "4 Resident Evil"? Sure, maybe a first timer to the series, but even then, I'm certain they'll figure it out.

Overall, you either didn't read my whole post or you're taking it quite literally - not EVERYTHING that's on the cover would be allowed. As I stated, "it shouldn't be a literal transcription" of what's on the cover. A perfect example would be "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' Quackers" - you'd certainly wouldn't change the name to "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' "Qu@c!<e*r!s"", right? It goes without saying that was an obvious stylistic choice. Which again, was the case with the examples you gave, especially Mega Man X3; the ³ would fall under special symbols, so the name for the entry will obviously be "Mega Man X3". I mean, I may sound like a broken record, but whether you like it or not, it's common sense. The alt-name field could house "Mega Man X³" for the sake of "staying true" to what's on the cover. An exception list that's a mile long isn't needed with a set of rules that properly detail how to accurately go about doing this, which the Style Guide already covers for the most part, so...

My original post was merely trying to convey that the cover can also be used the same way GameFAQs is, just make a section in the Style Guide that clearly expresses that it can't be a literal transcript of what's on it and properly detail the specifics of what's not allowed when using a cover as the source for naming an entry. I don't think it's rocket science.

[tripredacus]

This is such a strange argument we're having, or seeming to have. It is strange because pzeke, telly and myself are all on the same side.... aka I didn't vote for using common names when the poll was active. I feel the same way as before, that data should be represented precisely.
There was even an entry where Telly tried to rename it and it was against the style guide so I had rejected it. Then I sent him a PM to point out the stupid name that was on GameFAQs.

The difference now is that the community had a discussion and got to decide which method we use.

So there isn't a differing of opinion here. We get what you're saying, but also that we just aren't doing it that way anymore.

I will say that now since the rule has been in effect, it is a good thing. It certainly has made things easier, just look on a site and see what the name is. Especially on the admin side when people try to change item names with edits.

I've posted it before, I had always wanted for there to be multiple name fields that could be used. So that we could have options for common name, but also full title on cover, title on spine, etc. And then have an option for the users to decide which titles they see when viewing collection. It might not be the best option, but having a system like that would pretty much take care of all of that.
Most of the reason we have a Style Guide in the first place is to help us manage data with limited options. There is only 1 name field, so we need to specify what you are supposed to put in there. It is better than how it was before when there were edit wars on item names, changing them back and forth.

EDIT: wanted to quote this

you'd certainly wouldn't change the name to "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' "Qu@c!<e*r!s"", right?

Before the common name vote, there were releases of this game that had this as their title. 

[telly]

If the rule regarding symbols was already in place, why were you adding the ampersand, then?

Because I was making those edits before that rule was put in place. Not sure when that happened though, Tripredacus might know.

Overall, you either didn't read my whole post or you're taking it quite literally - not EVERYTHING that's on the cover would be allowed. As I stated, "it shouldn't be a literal transcription" of what's on the cover. A perfect example would be "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' Quackers" - you'd certainly wouldn't change the name to "Disney's Donald Duck: Goin' "Qu@c!<e*r!s"", right? It goes without saying that was an obvious stylistic choice. Which again, was the case with the examples you gave, especially Mega Man X3; the ³ would fall under special symbols, so the name for the entry will obviously be "Mega Man X3". I mean, I may sound like a broken record, but whether you like it or not, it's common sense. The alt-name field could house "Mega Man X³" for the sake of "staying true" to what's on the cover. An exception list that's a mile long isn't needed with a set of rules that properly detail how to accurately go about doing this, which the Style Guide already covers for the most part, so...

The reason why I provided those examples originally was to argue that the "Use the name provided by the game itself, that's on the cover or the spine. What's wrong with doing that?" statement you made in your original post is flawed and just doesn't pan out in practice. And now the goalposts have now been shifted to instead it's "use the name on the cover, but detail the specifics of what's not allowed when using a cover as the source for naming an entry". So I think I've made my point there. But your statement below I still take issue with.

My original post was merely trying to convey that the cover can also be used the same way GameFAQs is, just make a section in the Style Guide that clearly expresses that it can't be a literal transcript of what's on it and properly detail the specifics of what's not allowed when using a cover as the source for naming an entry. I don't think it's rocket science.

But you really can't though. You can log on to GameFaqs and look at a game's page and it will immediately tell you what the title is. Because it's already provided. If you take a game's cover, you have to make your own value judgment on what stylization of the title is or isn't valid. Even if I grant you all the "obvious stuff" like 4 Resident Evil, you still have to deal with colon placement, capitalization, word placement, subtitles, and possessives. Here's an example of each one of them.

Word Spacing: Is it Mega Man or Megaman? We have people who put in both names. And I've had to edit quite a few of them over the years
https://vgcollect.com/search/megaman

Capitalization: Is it littleBigPlanet or littleBIGplanet? We have people who put in both names.
https://vgcollect.com/search/littleBIGplanet

Is it inFamous or inFAMOUS? This game was BOTH names at one point.
https://vgcollect.com/item/11218

Words being in the title or not: Is it .hack//Quarantine or Dot Hack Part 4: Quarantine: The Final Chapter? This game was BOTH names at one point.
https://vgcollect.com/item/1325

Subtitles being in the title or not: Is it Chibi-Robo! or Chibi-Robo! Plug Into Adventure!? This game was BOTH names at one point.
https://vgcollect.com/item/15958

Colons: Is it Pokemon X or Pokemon: X? This game was BOTH names at one point. And remember, games don't have colons on the box. That's 100% reliant on some other process.
https://vgcollect.com/item/48620

Possessives: Is it Disney/Pixar's Finding Nemo or just Finding Nemo? And how come we're not comfortable saying "M Night Shyamalan The Last Airbender" or "Lara Croft Tomb Raider: Legend" but we're okay with saying "Tony Hawk's Pro Skater?" There are so many examples of this.

Is it 007 NightFire or James Bond 007: NightFire? (or maybe it should be Nightfire?? ) We have people who put in ALL THREE options.
https://vgcollect.com/search/007%3A%20NightFire

These are all REAL common sense examples that the db has been struggling with for years. And there are even others. So why even bother with trying to decipher the name based on the cover with an accompanying conditions list a mile long? If we're just going to rely on some other source of information anyway, we might as well make that information source consistently easy to use, rather than rely on "common sense" which as I've shown, doesn't work, and isn't the same among our userbase. Look at the advanced style guide for naming as it is. There are many, many other issues when it comes to game names such as

•Games with multiple subtitles
•Games with an abbreviation and full title together
•Use of hyphens
•Use of TLD
•Non-latin language names
•Use of the word "The, A or An"
•Non-english latin language games
•Logos as text replacements
•Descriptors for games with multiple cover arts

And so on. And all that information is just as useful to our user base. So to compromise, I think using GameFaqs for the basics covers most of the issues that users will trip up on for 95% of the database with naming. Again, that's what we as a community decided on. And while neither option is perfect, this option is undoubtedly the better, and I stand behind my vote and for bringing this up a couple years back in the first place.
Read the post I made here, and the subsequent two replies, if you want to learn more.

My question for you is this: how is our current system (GameFaqs) better than making our own rules list for everything? I'm a little confused why this is even an argument, because at the end of the day, we both want things to be easier for users.

[tripredacus]

If the rule regarding symbols was already in place, why were you adding the ampersand, then?

The rule regarding symbols wasn't already in place. It was an unwritten rule that (previous) admins have said not to use, but it wasn't in the style guide. So it was put into the Style Guide, but I do not think that it was announced. It may have been done before we decided to open up some decisions to the community.

And you'll see even now that we don't put forth every little thing to a vote, but users have the ability to call for a vote on something by requesting one here: https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,8361.0.html

Also I wanted to mention regarding "common sense" is that we are an international site and we have users from all over the world. What may make sense for you as living in one country may not necessarily be true of someone else in another country. Our struggle is to have rules that make sense for everyone as best we can. Always knowing that there are people that want to be more specific, but you have to realise that those of us like that are in the minority.