Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions

[telly]

Only DLC that constitutes a full game is added as a separate item

Here is the problem with this. Who gets to decide? What do we use for reference to know what a DLC is and isn't? I tend to ignore what is in the digital categories other than to put in pictures of fix titles (all caps or trademark symbols, etc) because I have no idea what any of that stuff is in the console digital sections.

I agree, I just noticed some were mentioning this regarding Undead Nightmare so I thought I would include it as a possible option.

I don't think any DLC should be added, whether it's a full game or a skin or something. I think people can just put it in their notes on an item.

[tripredacus]

Only DLC that constitutes a full game is added as a separate item

Here is the problem with this. Who gets to decide? What do we use for reference to know what a DLC is and isn't? I tend to ignore what is in the digital categories other than to put in pictures of fix titles (all caps or trademark symbols, etc) because I have no idea what any of that stuff is in the console digital sections.

I agree, I just noticed some where mentioning this regarding Undead Nightmare so I thought I would include it as a possible option.

I don't think any DLC should be added, whether it's a full game or a skin or something. I think people can just put it in their notes on an item.

The problem is, we can't put up a poll without a way for that "only if stand-alone" to be determined. We can have now to be the "figure it out later" time and not after the poll is up. Plus, we have to take into consideration what the Style Guide currently has in it, that would be an option as well.... BUT as it stands, it also has the same problem, how do we know?

[telly]

That's fine, we can discuss what that might look like and it can be added as an option to the poll or not when we come to a consensus!

[ignition365]

Undead nightmare is a separate game completely so it isn't considered DLC, it's just a Download Title.

It's really a simple thing when it comes to that... it's not DLC.  If the title doesn't require the main game then it isn't DLC.  It shouldn't even be a topic of discussion really, it should be treated no differently than any other digital only title.

I think the discussion in general is a dangerous discussion because allowing stuff like skins and such as separate listings will have people listing stuff like the 3000 hats in TF2 in the database with no one to monitor it because only one user cares about it and no admins know better to audit the listings.

Edit: Having read through the posts in reference, I see the conversation is about more than Undead Nightmare.  DLC is a complex conversation.  I think, personally, it should be notes on the item in the collection until such a point that a more robust system could be put into place for the database.  A separate entry system for DLC or something to link back to parent items with cross references, or integrating it into the existing system requiring a parent item to submit dLC entries.  Not a simple change, but likely the optimal solution.

[emporerdragon]

Undead nightmare is a separate game completely so it isn't considered DLC, it's just a Download Title.

Not quite. It's DLC that got a standalone release. It's also considered DLC for the purposes of both Sony and Microsoft's Trophy/Achievement systems, whereas a true separate game would have a separate list.

[telly]

What I was thinking was that when an item listing is created or edited, we select whether or not the game has DLC. This would pull up a box underneath the notes section when people add them item to their collection where they can write in what DLC they have.

Unfortunately that would require changes to the database structure which I don't think could be done overnight :/

EDIT: I think this is kind of what Ignition365 was getting at

[ignition365]

Undead nightmare is a separate game completely so it isn't considered DLC, it's just a Download Title.

Not quite. It's DLC that got a standalone release. It's also considered DLC for the purposes of both Sony and Microsoft's Trophy/Achievement systems, whereas a true separate game would have a separate list.

Trophy list might treat it as DLC but the store lists it as a Full Game.

[tripredacus]

That type of item design (parent/child) is the ideal way to go about it. It certainly would require a bit of redesign work and testing... it would also make things a bit more complicated. Because of that, such a system couldn't be just enabled without the ability for users to opt out of it. I have a design in my head for how it would work, but getting everyone together to work on such a project is actually more challenging than how the design would work. Also, that type of design, if implemented properly, would solve many of the nitpicky problems we have with item entries that we currently have rules for in the Style Guide.

[tripredacus]

Style Guide Poll #5 Pack-in Games from Games or Game Packs voting is live:
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,11218.new.html

[tripredacus]

Style Guide Poll #6 Multi-platform Physical Release Game Category Placement is live.
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,11413.0.html

[dhaabi]

As many here may know, my contributions to the database regularly relate to Asian items with a focus on items from Japan specifically. Working within the confines of our site's common name rule, I have found myself routinely updating incorrect GameFAQs game entry titles so that VGC entry titles may be correct. Mostly, edit submissions are not an issue on their site, but there are some notable issues I have encountered that all revolve around what GameFAQs accepts for localized franchise names.

Here are two minor examples:

Biohazard
The Biohazard series may be recognized on GameFAQs as Biohazard, BioHazard, or BIOHAZARD. Across other sites, the franchise is largely formatted as Biohazard, and, as such, should be the standardization on our site.

Sangokushi
The Sangokushi series may be recognized on GameFAQs as Sangokushi or San Goku Shi. The series name references a real world historical text widely understood to be formatted as the former. As such, Sangokushi should be the standardization.

However, I have taken much greater issue with the following two examples:

Katamari Damashii
In Japan, the Damacy series is known as Damashii. However, the GameFAQs edit submission mod is firm on their stance that 塊魂 "translates" to Katamari Damacy, which is incorrect. Even if they were meaning to say "transliterates," it is incorrect. For many games in the series, ダマシイ or だましい is supplied as the furigana readings, which transliterates to Damashii. The furigana reading can be seen here on Katamari Damashii's front cover.

Tenchuu
In Japan, many Tenchuu games rely solely on kanji text 天柱 for the game title. 天柱 is an actual word with a second "u" sound at the end (てんちゅう, not てんちゅ.) GameFAQs disregards this reading and instead supports Tenchu for all games within the franchise including titles released in Japan.

I'm presenting these issues to suggest that perhaps we should consider instances like these to follow other examples previously discussed here such as Formula 1 and Pro Evolution Soccer. With that said, it is important to note that my concerns relate to numerous items on a franchise level and not for instances of specific games on an individual level featuring incorrect names. As I briefly mentioned before, updating an incorrect title on GameFAQs' site is usually not problematic, and especially so when the edit is made for items outside of franchises or for items in franchises that were never given a Western release.

[tripredacus]

We don't care about the particular formatting that is used, so Biohazard has nothing to be judged upon.
Tenchu and Katamari Damacy issues just effect their entries for Japanese games and they are using the US titles. I don't think we should be interested in having a poll that effects the names of individual entries, as it would be too much work for too little result.

The only one that stands out is Sangokushi, since that is something I've run across and other members have brought that up also.
If you agree, I can make a naming poll regarding Sangokushi.

[dhaabi]

We don't care about the particular formatting that is used, so Biohazard has nothing to be judged upon.
Tenchu and Katamari Damacy issues just effect their entries for Japanese games and they are using the US titles. I don't think we should be interested in having a poll that effects the names of individual entries, as it would be too much work for too little result.

The only one that stands out is Sangokushi, since that is something I've run across and other members have brought that up also.
If you agree, I can make a naming poll regarding Sangokushi.

If possible, a poll regarding Sangokushi would be ideal. However, I would like to address some of the other items in further detail:

For Biohazard, the point I was trying to make is that some entries in our database are formatted as Biohazard and others as BioHazard, so I was hoping for there to be a standard. Using another franchise as an example, I don't think you personally would be pleased with some Sonic entries being titled either Sonic the Hedgehog or Sonic the HedgeHog. If there is nothing to address here, then I will update any BioHazard entries to Biohazard at a later time.

For both Damashii and Tenchuu, to say that the entries are currently relying upon the US titles is incorrect. For some specific titles such as Katamari Damacy / Katamari Damashii, yes but certainly not for all. Here are some examples:

We Love Katamari [NA]
https://vgcollect.com/item/1077
Minna Daisuki Katamari Damacy [JP] --> correct title is Minna Daisuki Katamari Damashii
https://vgcollect.com/item/32800

Katamari Forever [NA]
https://vgcollect.com/item/17301
Katamari Damacy Tribute [JP] --> correct title is Katamari Damashii Tribute
https://vgcollect.com/item/152771

Tenchu: Wrath of Heaven [NA]
https://vgcollect.com/item/1585
Tenchu San [JP] --> correct title is Tenchuu San
https://vgcollect.com/item/115351

Tenchu: Fatal Shadows [NA]
https://vgcollect.com/item/1229
Tenchu Kurenai [JP] --> correct title is Tenchuu Kurenai
https://vgcollect.com/item/87709

The above examples within our database and on GameFAQs are currently using a combination of both Japanese and English titles which results in a title that doesn't exist. With that said, the incorrect franchise naming does not affect entries on an individual level but on a group level, as these are instances where the problem affects a franchise with numerous games.

[tripredacus]

Biohazard should be typed as I type it in this post. It is a normal word and should not have any additional capitalisations present.

We always have the ability to put the correct names into alt-name is something is wrong on our source.
Aside from the posted examples being technically wrong, it has caused no issues with our userbase and there have been no complaints about those titles other than people who get annoyed that the translations are wrong. I'm not inclined to bother with issues like Katamari or Tenchu when we can easily use alt-name. Sangokushi on the other hand has a huge amount of titles and it already using the alt-name for the opposite of whatever GameFAQs has for the title (Sangokushi vs San Goku Shi) and the only reason why I am inclined to run a poll on that is because it has caused issue/confusion among users in the past.

Even if we ran polls on any of these, we'd still have to use alt-name to put the "incorrect GameFAQs" name into there. So this really effects how entries look in collection and in search results.

[tripredacus]

Revisiting the Sangokushi naming situation, there seems to have been some changes on GameFAQs regarding their use of this name. So here are some additional notes and questions regarding how this should move forward.

- When I was working on the MD Japan categories and worked on the Sangokushi entries (and did all the alt-names for the other entries for this game) GameFAQs might have been at a 3/5 San Goku Shi to Sangokushi ratio. Looking at it today, it seems to be 95% San Goku Shi with the exception of extremely new or old entries. This means that it is not as contentious as it once was and leaves open an option for people to choose to not create a common name exception for it.

- 三国志 is Chinese for "Three Kingdoms" and it a more common term than the game series that spawned this issue originally. That being Koei's Romance of the Three Kingdoms game series and in actuality there are more games not from this series that use 三国志. So this poll would not be about how to name a game series, but rather whether we are going to be using spaces inbetween the transliteration of the Chinese characters. And if this is the case, then it may end up being that we have to be careful as to whether this would apply to all Chinese words or just 三国志.