Author Topic: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025  (Read 5012 times)

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2025, 04:53:15 pm »
I understand that well, but then and once we set the software apart, nothing related to the production of the physical item relates to what a developper does, to my understanding:
- Designing and moulding a plastic case is not development.
- Designing and printing a cover is not development.
- Designing and printing a disc art is not development.
- Writing, correcting, structuring and printing a manual is not development, same go for the various leaflets that are part of some physical items.
- Translating the dialogs of a game is not development.
- Depending on the tools implementing the translation can be development indeed, but so far from the full implementation of a game that no honest developper would scratch the name of the original authors. Same goes for adaptation to PAL quirks (50Hz output from the top of my head).
- Compiling the software and pressing the disc is not development.

For an instance like this, I would widely prefer to put a line into description like this:
Cover branded as developped by Capcom, Co., Ltd.

I don’t know what Capcom, Co., Ltd. considered they had developped in this item. Nor if they even considered it at all, since the item must have been actually published by Electronic Arts and not Capcom, given the warranty contact details in the manual, both for France and Netherlands (imho that makes the entry “objectively”, whatever that means, wrong, in addition to blatantly innacurate). That actually has me thinking some agreement must have happened between (some) video game companies for organising themselves the publication of PS2/3 games in Europe. But that’s not the point.

Point is: Clover developped God Hand. Capcom adapted it (translation, 50Hz), chose to publish it on NA and european markets. For the latter Capcom must have delegated (poorly) the job to EA.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2025, 04:59:13 pm by bobi »

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2025, 11:38:39 pm »
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 09:51:44 am by dhaabi »

dhaabi

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2025, 09:51:20 am »
I don’t know what Capcom, Co., Ltd. considered they had developped in this item.

In my opinion, the issue lies in the database as it's far outdated. At first, the database was designed to only track physical items, but that changed in time as digital items were then permitted. Despite the stark differences between these two types of items, there is only one form field that's shared. So, you have fields like Barcode and Box Text being present for digital entries and then Developer and Genre being present for physical entries.

Until there's any major development changes to separate these two types of items or to create the aforementioned game data entries, then physical entries should prioritize the text found on the actual item (e.g. Capcom, not Clover Studio) to determine what the developer is said to be while using the Description field to clarify the truth that's the game data.

tripredacus

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2025, 11:18:50 am »
The site was designed to track "games" first and not physical items. The physical games categories became about physical items once the variants for 3 and 5 screw NES carts were made. The design was not adapted way back then for this difference, or perhaps the old admins did not think too hard about it.

At first, the database was designed to only track physical items, but that changed in time as digital items were then permitted.

---

Quote
Clover developped God Hand. Capcom adapted it (translation, 50Hz), chose to publish it on NA and european markets.

By this description, it seems more like Capcom created a wrapper for the game and this is what they attribute their development credit to.
It would be no different in comparison to something like Midway Arcade Treasures where Midway was the developers of the original game content, but Digital Eclipse developed the wrapper that the games run in.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2025, 11:23:56 am by tripredacus »

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2025, 11:34:16 am »
To be frank I deeply regret this stance. Not crediting actual developpers seems so distant from the passion I feel for the medium and the people behind, I just cannot understand it.
Though there is the subsidiary argument that kind of make sense for a few of my Capcom games who suffered the same treatment over the last few days, I cannot fathom Brütal Legend being credited to EA, to which Double Fine has never been a subsidiary.

I am at the point where I actually refrain from updating some of my items since it very well could mean doing so would put the mods attention to some fields that this rule’d deem as wrong information, which I’d consider strict accuracy.

Anyway, on a lighter note, a few days back I added the french version of the special edition of Heavy Rain on PS3 there: https://vgcollect.com/item/280949
dhaabi rightfully corrected it with the Édition Spéciale mention readable from the back cover, but keeping the definite article L’, which makes as little sense in a title in french as it does in english (the english entry goes with “Heavy Rain - Special Edition”, not “Heavy Rain - The Special Edition”).
I proposed a first edit with Édition Collector (being the words I remember being widely used in press and whatnot back when the game was issued), only to stand corrected by what appears on the back, fair point.
So, then I proposed two other edits with “Heavy Rain - Édition Spéciale” (keeping what’s on the box, but removing the definite article L’), only to be rejected for, presumably, the same reason, thus despite me using the description box as a comment section as I had been invited to a long time ago, for another change (here: https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,9928.msg169814.html#msg169814 - or at least that’s how I understood it back then, since my description was rejected but the change of platform accepted).
Anyway, if I suggest this edit again (Édition Spéciale instead of L’Édition Spéciale), can it be accepted? If not, why?

tripredacus

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2025, 12:13:18 pm »
Anyway, if I suggest this edit again (Édition Spéciale instead of L’Édition Spéciale), can it be accepted? If not, why?

You would need to prove that this text "Édition Spéciale" also is present on the front or back cover, or spine (or something only on a sealed copy) for it to be put into the item title.

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2025, 12:44:27 pm »
Again, it is, and that’s not disputed there since it’s dhaabi who spotted it and updated the item in consequence.

What I argue is, for the title itself keeping the L’ is unnatural.

dhaabi

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2025, 10:23:57 am »
Again, it is, and that’s not disputed there since it’s dhaabi who spotted it and updated the item in consequence.

What I argue is, for the title itself keeping the L’ is unnatural.

Edition names should match what's mentioned on the item itself. Here are other entries with "unnatural" names or alt-names that are perfectly fine.
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike: Fight for the Future - The Limited Edition
Sid Meier's Civilization II - The Collector's Edition
Assassin's Creed III - Special Edition

tripredacus

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2025, 10:25:35 am »
I have asked Grok with this prompt:

"A video game database has naming rules for items. One of the rules is that if a particular video game has an "edition" name then the name used in the database must be printed on the packaging. The site is English based, however it covers releases from other countries. It will use the actual text from the packaging and not a translation. One particular item is a game from France, which does not actually state the edition name per se. On the back, it has the following text: "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE"

There are two arguments as for what the edition name should be input into the database. One says it should be "L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" because that is what the text on the back says, however the other argument is that it should be "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" because the text on the back is referring to the contents and the L' portion is improper usage outside of the sentence it is in. Which of these arguments is correct?"

and here is the response:

"To determine the correct edition name for the database based on the given rules, we need to focus on the exact text printed on the packaging and how it aligns with the naming convention. The rule states that the name used in the database "must be printed on the packaging" and should not be a translation, as the site is English-based but uses the actual text from the packaging.
The text on the back of the French game’s packaging reads: "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE." Translated, this means "Contents of the Special Edition," but the database rule emphasizes using the literal text, not a translation. The question is which part of this phrase—or which variation—qualifies as the "edition name" as it appears on the packaging.

Argument 1: "L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE"
This argument suggests including the article "L'" (a contraction of "le," meaning "the") along with "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" because it appears as part of the full phrase "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE." However, "L'" is a grammatical article tied to the sentence structure, not necessarily part of the edition name itself. The packaging does not explicitly isolate "L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" as a standalone title; it’s embedded in a descriptive phrase about the contents.

Argument 2: "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE"
This argument posits that "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" alone is the edition name, as "L'" is a definite article that functions within the sentence "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" but isn’t essential to the name of the edition. In French, edition names often omit articles when formalized (e.g., "Édition Collector" vs. "L'Édition Collector"), and the core identifier here is "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" (Special Edition). The reasoning is that "CONTENU DE" (contents of) indicates what follows is the edition being described, and "L'" is incidental to that description.

Given the database rule to use the "actual text from the packaging" for the edition name, we must consider what constitutes the "edition name" as printed. The full phrase "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" is about the contents, not a standalone title. Nowhere on the packaging (based on the provided information) does it explicitly say "L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" or "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" as a isolated name. However, in video game naming conventions, the edition is typically the descriptive part after any articles or prepositions, especially when derived from a phrase like this.

In French, articles like "L'" are often dropped when formalizing titles or names unless explicitly included on the packaging as part of the branding (e.g., on the front cover). Since the text "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" is from the back and describes contents, the most logical edition name, consistent with the spirit of the rule, is the core identifier: "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE." This aligns with how edition names are typically extracted from packaging text—focusing on the specific edition descriptor rather than grammatical particles tied to sentence context.

Thus, the second argument is correct. The edition name should be entered into the database as "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE", as it reflects the actual edition being referred to on the packaging, stripped of the sentence-specific article "L'.""

tripredacus

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2025, 10:29:43 am »
Again, it is, and that’s not disputed there since it’s dhaabi who spotted it and updated the item in consequence.

What I argue is, for the title itself keeping the L’ is unnatural.

Edition names should match what's mentioned on the item itself. Here are other entries with "unnatural" names or alt-names that are perfectly fine.
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike: Fight for the Future - The Limited Edition
Sid Meier's Civilization II - The Collector's Edition
Assassin's Creed III - Special Edition


These examples are not the same situation, as I laid out in my prompt to Grok in my previous post. This Heavy Rain situation is one where the edition name is not printed anywhere except in the contents on the back. The three examples you posted all clearly have their edition names on the packaging.

dhaabi

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2025, 10:36:54 am »
Again, it is, and that’s not disputed there since it’s dhaabi who spotted it and updated the item in consequence.

What I argue is, for the title itself keeping the L’ is unnatural.

Edition names should match what's mentioned on the item itself. Here are other entries with "unnatural" names or alt-names that are perfectly fine.
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike: Fight for the Future - The Limited Edition
Sid Meier's Civilization II - The Collector's Edition
Assassin's Creed III - Special Edition


These examples are not the same situation, as I laid out in my prompt to Grok in my previous post. This Heavy Rain situation is one where the edition name is not printed anywhere except in the contents on the back. The three examples you posted all clearly have their edition names on the packaging.

If this is the defending argument being made, then the entry actually should be submitted as either Heavy Rain (BCES 00797/S), Heavy Rain (descriptor), or Heavy Rain - L'Édition Collector (based on the included voucher.) This is because only the contents are being described as l'édition spéciale and not the actual item itself.

I don't know the terminology for what kind of case the item uses (which would be used for the descriptor should that method be used, although technically (L'Édition Spéciale) works too), but it is found here. The eBay listing also shows the spine and voucher.

Also, to say the L is "often" dropped implies it sometimes isn't. While it doesn't matter based on the argument I'm presenting, there are clearly items which don't drop the L, such as with the aforementioned 69326. This can be compared to items which do drop the L, like MDK - Edition Speciale.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2025, 10:51:39 am by dhaabi »

tripredacus

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2025, 12:05:43 pm »
This is because only the contents are being described as l'édition spéciale and not the actual item itself.

The wording implies that the actual item is the named edition.

But using item number descriptors for all of the Heavy Rain releases in the EU category would be fine also.

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2025, 01:50:50 pm »
This argument posits that "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" alone is the edition name, as "L'" is a definite article that functions within the sentence "CONTENU DE L'ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" but isn’t essential to the name of the edition. In French, edition names often omit articles when formalized (e.g., "Édition Collector" vs. "L'Édition Collector"), and the core identifier here is "ÉDITION SPÉCIALE" (Special Edition). The reasoning is that "CONTENU DE" (contents of) indicates what follows is the edition being described, and "L'" is incidental to that description.
^ This essentially.

Here the “L’Édition Spéciale” mention cherry picked three words among the first sentence of a textbox on the back of the cover. Why would the cherry pick of two words be less acceptable than three?

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2025, 01:53:38 pm »
Also, to say the L is "often" dropped implies it sometimes isn't. While it doesn't matter based on the argument I'm presenting, there are clearly items which don't drop the L, such as with the aforementioned 69326. This can be compared to items which do drop the L, like MDK - Edition Speciale.[/font]
Grok said “often”. As a native french speaker I cannot stress enough how the definite article there feels wrong.

Re: Error Listings and Rejected Edits 2025
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2025, 10:43:13 pm »
« Last Edit: March 20, 2025, 10:05:03 am by dhaabi »