Author Topic: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions  (Read 3976 times)

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2018, 12:34:25 pm »
I want to run a new poll, to take care of one of the largest omissions from the style guide. Specifically, what names games have.

Current Style Guide:

Quote
Game Titles:

Use the item's regional release title, written in the language written on the case, but in the Latin alphabet (the letters we commonly use). If the title is in Japanese, use the most recognized transliteration.

  • Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King (NA)
  • Dragon Quest VIII: The Journey of the Cursed King (EU)
  • Dragon Quest VIII: Sora to Umi to Daichi to Norowareshi Himegimi (JP)

Here are the options for the poll:

1. Use common name
Common name can be easily determined by looking at the item in hand. This name may be from the front, spine or copyright text on the item. In order to enforce this naming policy, we will be required to have a list of approved sources for validating names. For example: Mobygames.com, Gamefaqs, Sega/Sonic/NECRetro.org.

There would be some exceptions to this rule, and that would be situations where some games have title arrangements that do no exist on the game itself. For example, the recent release of Mega Man Legacy Collection on Switch is often represented on other websites as "1+2" but this is not how it is rendered on the item itself. All other style guide rules have priority over the use on other websites.

To enact this rule would be to remove the perceived requirement to enforce full titles, such as having Disney/Pixar, M Night Shamalan or excessive colon usage. We can then treat item titles loosly enough so that if a game is titled according to our style requirements, and is backed up by the name on one of our "approved sources" then it should be enough. We should still use alternate spellings and whatnot in alt-name field. Full title may be put into description.

2. Full front title as it appears
The game title will be the full front title as it appears on the game's case if applicable. This would require that all Disney/Pixar/Dreamworks/M Night Shamalayn have those prefix. All games with stylzed logos (even those with kerning errors) such as Mega Man become Megaman. Games with mostly unused front titles would be correct, such as .hack/sign series.

Common title would go into alt-name.

Not applicable
- Spine title: some games do not have a spine title
- Spine first, front second, media third: rule tracking per game would be difficult
- RDA Primary Proper Title of using a game's Title Screen is not applicable as we do not track individual softwares, rather physical items and would not create a general enough ruling format for compilations, or games without title screens.
- RDA Secondary Propert Title of using a game's title as printed on the physical media does not take in account for games with no titles on the media, or physical games sold without media.

Please add other ideas for poll options here
I don't think we should just have 2 poll choices, so let's hear what other ideas you have. Perhaps we can put the "spine first, front second" option as #3, but before considering that as a choice to put up for voting, you would need to determine a system to properly handle that, both for users to reference and for admins to implement.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 09:54:20 am by tripredacus »

telly

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2018, 02:34:52 pm »
With option two, the other big change would be that all Japanese games in Katakana and everything in Korean would need to be transliterated.

So for example, this game's name would need to be Sonikku Adobencha DX: Derakkusu (If we are sticking with things needing to be in Latin characters), or ソニックアドベンチャー DX:デラックス if we really want to use it "as it appears on the box"

https://vgcollect.com/item/99231

For Korea, this game would either need to be Byeolui Keobi: Teulipeul Dileogseu or  별의별커비 : 트리플 디럭스
https://vgcollect.com/item/111912

I've already stated how much I oppose using the full front title so I'll just post a link to my thoughts here ;) Obviously if people vote in the other direction I'll concede though.

EDIT: And it's not just simply Mega Man to MegaMan, it's a lot, lot more, so I hope a lot of people vote on this at the very least (and read my post, as long as it is)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 02:43:29 pm by telly »
Currently Playing:
Ace Combat 7: Skies Unknown (PS4), Stardew Valley (PS4)

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2018, 04:24:58 pm »
I suggest everyone read "Best Practices for Cataloging Video Games, Using RDA and MARC21, Version 1.1, April 2018" found at https://www.olacinc.org/sites/default/files/Video%20Game%20Best%20Practices-April-2018%20Revision-a.pdf

Especially the following sections:

II. General Characteristics of Video Games
     Platforms and Formats .......
     Editions and Expansions ......
     Locating Credits and Title Information ......

IV. Describing the Resource
   A. Attributes of Manifestation and Item (RDA Section 1)
      1. Mode of Issuance
      2. Comprehensive, Analytical, Hierarchical Description
      3. Guidelines on Transcription
      4. Title (RDA 2.3)
      5. Statement of Responsibility (RDA 2.4)
      6. Edition Statements (RDA 2.5)

VI. Resources
     Online (Section), that lists:

Gamer Group
http://gamer.ischool.uw.edu/.

Good Old Games
http://www.gog.com/

Moby Games
http://www.mobygames.com/

Play Asia
http://www.play-asia.com/

Steam
http://store.steampowered.com/

telly

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2018, 08:15:49 pm »
Quote
Recording the title proper
Record the title proper from the source of information. Do not transcribe introductory words
that are clearly not intended to be part of the title (RDA 2.3.1.6). If considered important, this
information may be given as a variant title or note. However, names in the possessive case
preceding the title are considered an integral part of the title and should be included (RDA
2.3.1.5).
245 00 $a Ratatouille.
246 00 $i Title appears on cartridge label as: $a Disney Pixar
Ratatouille
(246 is optional)

So Disney/Pixar would not be included, but possessive words like Tony Hawk's or Tom Clancy's would be according to this.
Currently Playing:
Ace Combat 7: Skies Unknown (PS4), Stardew Valley (PS4)

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2018, 09:04:35 am »
I bring to your attention

https://vgcollect.com/search/resident%20evil%204

Technically, under the full front title (or even the spine) this should be listed as "4 Resident Evil"


tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2018, 10:01:24 am »
I bring to your attention

https://vgcollect.com/search/resident%20evil%204

Technically, under the full front title (or even the spine) this should be listed as "4 Resident Evil"

Yes this and then there would be Resident Evil 0 Zero (or is that Resident Evil Zero 0?) with Biohazard alternatives...

I've looked through the RDA document, and it has some major issues even for a library system. It presumes that both physical media in physical package exists and that title screens exist. Using title screen titles for Item Title is not something we can be doing, as many times a game may not have a title screen, or the title screen has a different title than the game itself. (Or worse, there are typos in it!) That guide is designed for an existing system. As you can tell from just the title sections, it uses an attribute field for the title to note where the title comes from. This would be a great resource if VGCollect were set up in the format it was written for.

Overall, I cannot see anything in this PDF to indicate what a 3rd choice to the upcoming poll would be.

telly

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2018, 10:41:08 am »
Yeah I agree with not using the title screen as naming, though that PDF says you can use the physical media as a back iirc. Makes me wonder why even bother, just use the physical media haha
Currently Playing:
Ace Combat 7: Skies Unknown (PS4), Stardew Valley (PS4)

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2018, 08:05:15 pm »
Ok... is this same thing why .hack//Quarantine is named incorrectly?


tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2018, 11:04:01 am »
Ok... is this same thing why .hack//Quarantine is named incorrectly?

Most of the .hack//Quarantine entries in teh DB are named based on the title on the front. This is different than the name on the spine, which is how it is typically referenced on other websites. It is not named incorrectly. I think that if we end up using common names at all, the "Part 4" would need to be omitted from that, since even Gamefaqs calls the game .hack//Quarantine Part 4. It is not the 4th part of the Quarantine series, it is the 4th part of the .hack series.  ::)

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2018, 10:37:15 am »
If there is no additional ideas posted, the Poll will be created on Wednesday August 1st and will run for 7 days.

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2018, 11:24:44 am »

totallycrushed

  • Guest
Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2018, 12:30:34 pm »
.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:53:01 pm by totallycrushed »

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2018, 12:56:14 pm »
TLD in item titles are to indicate release country and not languages.

There are games released in the US that are in English, French and/or Spanish, but no TLD is used. For instances where there are an English game and a "variant" with English/French, the English/French is [CA] for Canada. We do not put [FR] on this entry because they were not sold in France. For games that were sold in the US and contain spanish, we do not put [ES] on the title because they were not sold in Spain.

A European example. Right Racer Type 4 for Playstation, specific version released in Spain, Greece and Portugal:
https://vgcollect.com/item/149247
Languages on the back of the case are Spanish, Portugese, Greek and English.
There is no TLD for English, there is [UK], however this game was not sold in UK.

Another European example. Aliens: Colonial Marines for PS3 was sold in German language case in Germany with USK rating and in Austria with PEGI rating.
https://vgcollect.com/item/98309
We do not put [DE] on the title for the Austrian version because it was sold in Austria, not Germany.

Rules for TLD use are not in the Style Guide and should be. The possible poll voting I can see are:
1. Expected order of TLD: alphabetical or in order of representative language on case*
2. Expected formatting of multiple TLD: separate TLD as (example) [FR][UK] or use combined (example) [FR/UK]
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 02:04:39 pm by tripredacus »

totallycrushed

  • Guest
Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2018, 01:11:41 pm »
.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:53:22 pm by totallycrushed »

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2018, 02:48:12 pm »
*Updated option 1. Summary:
Arrange TLD in title based on representative order of languages on the case. A game title may be [SE][DK][FI][NO] if the languages on the back are arranged as Swedish, Danish, Finnish and Norweigan, in that order.

We have this item, Shinobi on PS2 for Scandinavian region:
https://vgcollect.com/item/119651
Which agozer made as Shinobi [DK][FI][NO][SE].
But on the back of the game itself, on the main text descriptions and in the requirements, the order is [SE][DK][FI][NO]
http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps2/shinobi-/cover-art/gameCoverId,51459/

Here is Killzone on PS2:
https://vgcollect.com/item/127267
Which jjfly made as Killzone [SE][DK][FI][NO].
This arrangement of TLD matches the order of those languages on the back of the game.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps2/killzone/cover-art/gameCoverId,47782/

Here is Shadowrun on PC:
https://vgcollect.com/item/127699
Which jjfly made as Shadowrun [DK][FI][NO][SE].
This arrangement of TLD matches the order of those languages on the back of the game.

So we know already from these few examples, just of Scandinavian releases, that the order of language on the packaging is not any sort of standard, and in the case of Killzone (PS2) vs Shadowrun (PC) the TLDs would be in a different order if order was determined by language/flag order as displayed on the packaging itself.

Can we find examples where the order is different on a front vs back, or different on back vs back?

Note: This discussion is not limited to Scandinavian releases, just using these as direct examples.

Regardign the "BE" discussion, totallycrushed is referring to private conversation, however here is that example:
Hidden Agenda [DE][FR][IT][NL]
https://vgcollect.com/item/149246

The question being, should Belgium (BE) be added to the TLD list for this item because it was sold in Belgium? Possibly. However it appears that this is not the French release at all, so it possibly should not have [FR] in the title to begin with. The French release does not have additional languages on it. Also since there is no USK rating on it, it likely is not sold in Germany either, likely Austria instead. So this reveals a further situation (which is what ties this together) is that many people will put the TLD onto an item title when referring to the language on the case, and not what country the game was released in.

For reference, some discussion on this already took place in the TLD thread:
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,7009.0.html