Author Topic: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions  (Read 3977 times)

fazerco

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2018, 01:39:50 pm »


Regardign the "BE" discussion, totallycrushed is referring to private conversation, however here is that example:
Hidden Agenda [DE][FR][IT][NL]
https://vgcollect.com/item/149246

The question being, should Belgium (BE) be added to the TLD list for this item because it was sold in Belgium? Possibly. However it appears that this is not the French release at all, so it possibly should not have [FR] in the title to begin with. The French release does not have additional languages on it. Also since there is no USK rating on it, it likely is not sold in Germany either, likely Austria instead. So this reveals a further situation (which is what ties this together) is that many people will put the TLD onto an item title when referring to the language on the case, and not what country the game was released in.

For reference, some discussion on this already took place in the TLD thread:
https://vgcollect.com/forum/index.php/topic,7009.0.html

Those languages are for indentification only. If you take Austria, they speak German there, but also some other languages like Italian. Should we include Luxembourg in this also? And what about Switzerland? I would keep it as it is. Belgium is also Dutch, French and some German language.

And for the first part, i also said it that the language patron on the box can be in a different order. I use to know such a game, but forgot its name.........Thats why instead of the alfabet, i like the order on the box.

January 12, 2014

Flashback2012

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2018, 04:05:39 pm »
I thought [BE] stood for BENELUX which is Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg instead of just Belgium.  ???

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2018, 11:11:03 am »
I thought [BE] stood for BENELUX which is Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg instead of just Belgium.  ???

I had added BV for Benelux, but now I can't find the source. Apparently Benelux doesn't have an official TLD. I have sticken that from the master list for the moment.

And to re-iterate. The question is whether TLD should be put in alphabetical order or in the order their associated country's language appears on the packaging.

TLD is the country the product was created for. It is not the languages that are on the product.

Hidden Agenda PS4: https://vgcollect.com/item/149246
Cannot be used as an example because the title is in error. Despite the languages that are present on it, it is not the version made for Germany, France or Italy. The user who created this title incorrectly used TLD to represent language. I cannot find a large image of the back of this item and have been unable to determine the country it was created for. I can see that it can be purchased from websites in Netherlands, Switzerland and Belgium.

fazerco

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2018, 01:43:59 pm »
I thought [BE] stood for BENELUX which is Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg instead of just Belgium.  ???

I had added BV for Benelux, but now I can't find the source. Apparently Benelux doesn't have an official TLD. I have sticken that from the master list for the moment.

And to re-iterate. The question is whether TLD should be put in alphabetical order or in the order their associated country's language appears on the packaging.

TLD is the country the product was created for. It is not the languages that are on the product.

Hidden Agenda PS4: https://vgcollect.com/item/149246
Cannot be used as an example because the title is in error. Despite the languages that are present on it, it is not the version made for Germany, France or Italy. The user who created this title incorrectly used TLD to represent language. I cannot find a large image of the back of this item and have been unable to determine the country it was created for. I can see that it can be purchased from websites in Netherlands, Switzerland and Belgium.

BeNeLux isnt a country, so there is no TLD. It are 3 countrys who sometimes work together on some things.

January 12, 2014

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2018, 02:04:18 pm »
Hidden Agenda PS4: https://vgcollect.com/item/149246
Cannot be used as an example because the title is in error. Despite the languages that are present on it, it is not the version made for Germany, France or Italy. The user who created this title incorrectly used TLD to represent language. I cannot find a large image of the back of this item and have been unable to determine the country it was created for. I can see that it can be purchased from websites in Netherlands, Switzerland and Belgium.

I found a not great but at least readable back cover for that item on ebay (link) but it doesn't tell us anything about where it was released, only that the back cover was translated in 4 different languages (but we already know that :-X), anyway i can confirm that this version couldn't be released in France since it doesn't have the "Attention" red rectangle anywhere on the cover (which is mandatory to be visible on the packaging if a game want to be released in France, the French version of that game have it on the back cover).

I had added BV for Benelux, but now I can't find the source. Apparently Benelux doesn't have an official TLD. I have sticken that from the master list for the moment.

And to re-iterate. The question is whether TLD should be put in alphabetical order or in the order their associated country's language appears on the packaging.

TLD is the country the product was created for. It is not the languages that are on the product

I understand that this was not the initial question but the fact that we use the TLD to indicate the countries where a game was released instead of the languages that are on the packaging should at least be addressed while we are on the subject, or at least we should make it clear the next time we update the Style Guide (not that i want to change it, i totally agree with that otherwise some release would be impossible to differentiate if we only go with the language of the packaging like the Bust-a-Move 2 that annoyed me for a while a few months ago, that edition had the same exact back cover translated in the same six languages for all the different European releases, it even have the French "Attention" red rectangle on every one of them ::)).

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2018, 10:52:10 am »
I noticed the TLD thing wasn't even in the Style Guide. I have added it, but have not done anything regarding this discussion of  "arrangement" of TLD on an item.

Those links you posted to the Hidden Agenda examples may well be what we could use... BUT there is a cover variation. The entry in the DB does not have the "sign" cover but the cover with the person on it. I was not able to find a good image of the back of that particular version, so I cannot confirm if the backs are the same as on those more common "sign" covers.

Your link you posted to the Bust-a-move issue points out one thing I really don't like about the current system. And I typically feel this way when it comes to the SNES games in Europe, due to the fact the country codes are confusing AND the fact that sometimes the "NOE" games were not Germany releases, but EU releases, and the fact that they have those -1 versions. Because with those EU SNES games, you can get a situation where you don't need the TLD on the German releases because there is the -1 version, you can just put that in as title description. Then you would have some items having (NOE) or (NOE-1) in the title with no TLD, and then some other versions that only have 1 cart release having a TLD and no Nintendo country code in the title. Yet since the TLD is only to be used to avert name duplication for different items, not having the TLD on an item that has the Nintendo country code in the title would be OK, but looking at the category, or an advanced search result would not "look" even.

totallycrushed

  • Guest
Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2018, 05:58:05 pm »
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:54:04 pm by totallycrushed »

fazerco

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2018, 05:25:27 am »


Bought in Belgium

So? I can buy German, French and UK versions in Holland, so should i post NL on all of them?

January 12, 2014

totallycrushed

  • Guest
Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2018, 09:15:06 am »
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:54:37 pm by totallycrushed »

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2018, 09:59:19 am »
Your original point does not apply to this situation with Hidden Agenda, which has an incorrect title.

Should we have a motion on whether or not to allow language designations for games of unknown origin, such as this Hidden Agenda example, as a way to enter these items into the database without having the correct information, and have the language designation be used temporarily until the correct region/s have been identified?

If implemented, such designations would be in similar use to TLD, but in lowercase letters, in either ISO 639-1 or ISO 639-2.
https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php
And if implemented, such designations should only be used if the TLD is unknown and would not be allowed on an item where the TLD is known.

Regarding the original question "Arrange TLD in title based on representative order of languages on the case."
Is there any item currently created for multiple regions (where multiple TLD would be on the title) which has multiple languages that include a shared language between at least two of the countries? In other words, can anyone think of an example where this rule cannot be followed properly due to a shared language being present on the item?

fazerco

PRO Supporter

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2018, 10:03:13 am »
can anyone think of an example where this rule cannot be followed properly due to a shared language being present on the item?

There is atleast one, but you won't take my word for it, so i don't bother looking for it.

January 12, 2014

totallycrushed

  • Guest
Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2018, 10:37:02 am »
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:54:48 pm by totallycrushed »

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2018, 10:51:16 am »
Your original point does not apply to this situation with Hidden Agenda, which has an incorrect title.
How exactly does it have an incorrect title?

As already pointed out, it is not sold in France as it is missing the regulatory information. It is not sold in Germany, as it is not rated by USK. It is not sold in Italy as it is missing the hologram. While it may have French, German and Italian on the packaging, it is not sold in those countries, therefore the TLDs in the title are incorrect. Remember that the TLD indicates which country the item was created for sale in, not what languages are on the item.

We can potentially solve this issue with Hidden Agenda by making it the "EU" version, removing all TLDs but putting into the description field what languages are on the package. And then, the UK release gets the [UK] in the title.

can anyone think of an example where this rule cannot be followed properly due to a shared language being present on the item?

There is atleast one, but you won't take my word for it, so i don't bother looking for it.

I would believe you, but the reason I ask is because if we have at least one item that can defeat this rule, then it means we can't order TLD by representative language.

So the choices would be:
- alphabetical order
- any order you want
- order of representative language
- order of representative language unless there is a conflict due to shared language then alphabetical
- order of representative language unless there is a conflict due to shared language then any order you want

EDIT: be aware that this rule would apply to all items from any country, and not just EU or Scandinavian releases.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 10:57:09 am by tripredacus »

totallycrushed

  • Guest
Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2018, 11:07:30 am »
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 12:55:06 pm by totallycrushed »

tripredacus

Re: Style Guide Update Poll Idea Submissions
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2018, 11:18:17 am »
The back specifically says it is for Europe. "Alternate cover" description in the title is not allowed. If that character has a name, use "___________ cover" where the character name is in the blank.